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Indian Head Cents In Full Red

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Ballyhoo's Avatar
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1613 Posts
 Posted 10/18/2019  5:28 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add Ballyhoo to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
Something occurred to me the other day. Like most on the forum, I am aware that the environment in which a coin is stored contributes greatly to maintaining full red luster. I'm also aware that being encapsulated, particularly by PCGS and NGC, this drastically cuts down on the possibility, or at the very least slows it down. But here's my question. Since third party encapsulation is relatively "new", how did any of the copper cents survive 100 years in full red before hand? It kind of defies logic when thinking about the environmental effect. I mean, where did their former caretakers live? The southwest?
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moxking's Avatar
United States
17900 Posts
 Posted 10/18/2019  6:29 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add moxking to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Left in original rolls or bags before being dispersed to the winds. There are still honesty original rolls of many non-type coins still alive. Morgan's, Franklin's, Kennedy and the like still exist.

Many of the heaviest toned but still MS issues remained in cabinets and old holder types for decades.
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paralyse's Avatar
United States
12057 Posts
 Posted 10/18/2019  8:52 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add paralyse to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It would seem to defy logic, yet, they exist, and we know this because we can still find them.

Air-tight safes and bank vaults come to mind, as well as old collectors who stored their coins in cotton-lined envelopes inside cabinets/trays, some of which were under glass and rarely saw light, as well as being in a relatively stable environment. It helps to remember that numismatics was the "rich man's hobby" at the time and doubtless many collectors with the means to do so would have had good (by 1890's standards) storage setups.

Other means of storing coins, such as mason jars (which were occasionally even vacuum-sealed) and glass containers with lids, would have also preserved the color. Unless they were stored in the sunlight or otherwise exposed to the air, they can be buried underground and look the same way they did 100+ years ago when dug up (cf. Saddle Ridge hoard, and that was in tinned iron cans!!)

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kanga's Avatar
United States
5825 Posts
 Posted 10/18/2019  8:59 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add kanga to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I prefer RB coins.
IMO all copper will eventually tone to RB (and finally to BN).
I don't care to pay for a RED coin that I know will lose value later from toning, even if "later" is 10 or more years.
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Coinfrog's Avatar
United States
94367 Posts
 Posted 10/18/2019  9:22 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Coinfrog to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
And yet, top-grade 65,66 or better RD slabbed Indians continue to bring fantastic prices. Check Heritage or Snow's website.
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AES's Avatar
United States
452 Posts
 Posted 10/18/2019  11:29 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add AES to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It stands to reason that someone has perfected a method for "dipping" copper with suitable results. The very existence of so many old copper coins with RD designations makes this point. And I'm not talking about the method we all use for silver which results in the oddball color on copper.
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20753 Posts
 Posted 10/19/2019  09:11 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add just carl to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I suspect someone has invented time travel and goes back in time to acquire coins in full red color.
OR China has finally figured out how to make our old Copper coins again.
OR many were just put away somewhere safe.
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Ballyhoo's Avatar
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1613 Posts
 Posted 10/22/2019  7:58 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Ballyhoo to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Over the past weekend I attended the PAN Fall show in Pittsburgh where in conversation the very subject came up with an older, long time dealer from Chattanooga. Lacquer. That's what he told me they used years ago to protect their coins from the ravages of the environment. A quick dip in acetone and gone. I would have never thought of that.
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Conder101's Avatar
United States
17884 Posts
 Posted 10/23/2019  12:57 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Conder101 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Yes lacquer was the standard preservation method back in the 18th and early 19th century. It didn't hurt the coin and was easily removed if needed (I suspect wax would have been used sometimes as well.) The one thing you had to worry about with lacquer was the lacquer chipping or cracking. If not noticed the areas exposed by the chips or cracks would suffer differential toning.
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