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1994 D Lincoln Memorial Cent Extra 4

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killians76's Avatar
United States
986 Posts
 Posted 09/29/2008  9:08 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add killians76 to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
what happened here? extra 4? dunno how about the d?

1994-D-Lincoln-Memorial-Cent-Extra-4 1994-D-Lincoln-Memorial-Cent-Extra-4
Edited by killians76
10/04/2008 01:00 am
Valued Member
ziggy9's Avatar
United States
499 Posts
 Posted 09/29/2008  9:50 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add ziggy9 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The "4" is just small die gouges/scrapes
the "d" is splitting of the copper plating, given time it will rot there
Richard
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flyagi's Avatar
United States
60 Posts
 Posted 09/29/2008  9:53 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add flyagi to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Hard to tell but the D might be doubled...The extra 4 just looks like die marks or gas lines
Valued Member
United States
176 Posts
 Posted 09/29/2008  11:07 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add 300 coin guy to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
"4" looks like a Die Gouge
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foundinrolls's Avatar
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3507 Posts
 Posted 09/30/2008  12:45 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add foundinrolls to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The D is damaged and can't be doubled in any sort of way that would make the coin valuable.

I would have to have a really close look at this coin. The shape of the "gouge" is just too good.

It's hard to tell from the picture. I can't think of a way for the image of a 4 to get into that spot other than perhaps what is known as a counterclash.

When I have more time, I'll explain unless someone gets to it before I do.

Thanks,
Bill
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killians76's Avatar
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986 Posts
 Posted 09/30/2008  6:45 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add killians76 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
thanks bill I will be awaiting the explaination
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coop's Avatar
United States
62064 Posts
 Posted 10/01/2008  7:21 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coop to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Looks like plating separation. If you look at the overall area, there are these lines that flow NW-SE. The appearance to me like gas under the plating.
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foundinrolls's Avatar
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3507 Posts
 Posted 10/02/2008  01:18 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add foundinrolls to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
A counterclash is the result of the die making contact with a fragment of an already struck coin. It can be a piece of a clad layer from a coin that broke away or it could be a fragment that was struck.

Since the clash occurs with an object that has raised details, it imparts recessed details into a die that are in a spot other than where they belong.

That die now imparts raised details to coins that are struck that take on the form of the counterclash.

So I am not saying that this is what happened to this coin, but it is possible especially since the errant 4 seems to have a pretty good resemblance to a correct 4.


Thanks,
Bill
Edited by foundinrolls
10/02/2008 01:19 am
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Jorgy's Avatar
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145 Posts
 Posted 10/02/2008  2:04 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Jorgy to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Bill, good explaination but I believe that the material that causes the counterclash is something other then clad fragments and such. It would have to be something much harder then that. If it was coin material then counterclashes would be much more common as they would happen pretty much after every double struck coin happened. Die steel is so hard that I doubt that a thin cupro-nickel alloy fragment could impart a design into it. When my son and I first found the counterclash we discovered I had no idea what a counterclash was. During the process of first asking around trying figure out what it was and then submitting it for authentication and listing I learned a few things about them. What I was told by those I was talking with is that things like steel fragments, possibly breaking off the machinery, is the most likely culprit. Of Course I could be wrong but that is just what I gathered during the process.

Including a pic to show what the counterclash looks like.
1969s WCLR-001..
1994-D-Lincoln-Memorial-Cent-Extra-4
1994-D-Lincoln-Memorial-Cent-Extra-4
Edited by Jorgy
10/02/2008 2:14 pm
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foundinrolls's Avatar
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3507 Posts
 Posted 10/02/2008  5:02 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add foundinrolls to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Hi,

I am not sure a steel fragment would pick up coin details and then add them to a die unless the steel fragment was struck like a coin?

It has to be something with raised coin like details that causes the clash. If it is a detail from a coin, then it has to be a clash with a portion of an already struck coin.

Another possibility though for a counterclash would be, a normal die clash, followed by another die clash after the obverse die moved a little bit.

The detail(s) transferred to the die during the first clash are raised and the raised details might cause marks to be incused into a die during the second clash.
Then any coins struck after that would have raised anomalies that would be the result of the counterclash.

I think I thought that out fairly straight:-)

Thanks,
Bill
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Jorgy's Avatar
United States
145 Posts
 Posted 10/02/2008  7:50 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Jorgy to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
<<<I am not sure a steel fragment would pick up coin details and then add them to a die unless the steel fragment was struck like a coin?>>>

Yes that is what most likely happens, the steel fragment gets into the coining chamber and is struck then stays in, shifts and is struck again.

Maybe if Mike Diamond sees this post and replies he can explain it better. He is one of the guys that helped me with the counterclash. Also John W. Bordner who inspected one of the coin wrote an article that was printed in the March 6 2001 issue of Numismatic News in which he states "Counter clashes are quite different from die clashes because they are caused by foreign material and not direct hits from the dies striking each other. Since the dies are quite hard the foreign material would almost have to be hard enough to receive a blow from the dies and return the impression to the dies". In the article he goes on to state that the foreign material could be something that got stuck on a planchet and then imported on it into the coining chamber or a piece that broke off the machinery.
But I cant fathom coin material being hard enough to impress the image on the dies. If it was then counter clashes should be as common or more so then double struck coins as most every time a double struck (ones that the designs overlap) happened so should a counter clash.

Hope John doesn't mind my using the qoute from the article.
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flyagi's Avatar
United States
60 Posts
 Posted 10/02/2008  9:13 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add flyagi to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Killians76, Is there any way you can get better close-ups of the area? I'm new to this but give me the benefit of a doubt .
Here is what I see. Definitely not a 4....Looking under slight magnification, I see (just to the left of the 4)the letters FG as in initials for Frank Gasparro. Some of you may be right now and it's OK...I can take it...I know that it seems impossible to be in that area but, I see what I see.
Also there seems to be a slight imprint of the # 9 above the first 9 in 1994. The bottom of the imprinted 9 goes through and sticks out of the inside loop of the 9 on the date. I also think you will find more than that in that area of the coin but I have said enough for now. If nothing else...could you e-mail me a larger pic of it? I'll be anticipating the Experts Comments anxiously



(BE NICE)
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killians76's Avatar
United States
986 Posts
 Posted 10/03/2008  10:17 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add killians76 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
i will try and see what I can do for you. preciate it
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