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1946 LWC DDR Can't Find Listed, Is This A True Doubled Die?

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New Member

United States
4 Posts
 Posted 12/18/2019  02:29 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add Travis_Rookie to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
Hello All,
As the name states, Rookie here with first post. I exhausted all the great references that I have learned about from other posts here, so am ready to ask for help. I have a 1946 LWC in pretty good condition and see some doubling on the reverse. Would like input from the experts to help me decide what type of doubling I think I'm seeing. Thanks in advance for everyone's time. I can include more pics if needed.


1946-LWC-DDR-Can't-Find-Listed,-Is-This-A-True-Doubled-Die?
1946-LWC-DDR-Can't-Find-Listed,-Is-This-A-True-Doubled-Die?
1946-LWC-DDR-Can't-Find-Listed,-Is-This-A-True-Doubled-Die?
1946-LWC-DDR-Can't-Find-Listed,-Is-This-A-True-Doubled-Die?
1946-LWC-DDR-Can't-Find-Listed,-Is-This-A-True-Doubled-Die?
1946-LWC-DDR-Can't-Find-Listed,-Is-This-A-True-Doubled-Die?
1946-LWC-DDR-Can't-Find-Listed,-Is-This-A-True-Doubled-Die?
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TwistedTrader's Avatar
United States
305 Posts
 Posted 12/18/2019  02:37 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add TwistedTrader to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It looks like MD to me.
http://goccf.com/t/51410
New Member
United States
4 Posts
 Posted 12/18/2019  04:10 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Travis_Rookie to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you for your input and the link Twisted Trader
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John1's Avatar
United States
56855 Posts
 Posted 12/18/2019  04:14 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add John1 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
to CCF. It is MD. There are many types of doubling to learn,some keepable some not. Make sure to bookmark the link and click on the pics to enlarge.
http://koinpro.tripod.com/Articles/...Doubling.htm
John1
New Member
United States
4 Posts
 Posted 12/18/2019  07:51 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Travis_Rookie to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks John1 for the link with the good examples and your time to reply to my post. I've studied Error-ref.com quite a bit and I guess I'm still pretty confused. Could you or someone help me understand specifically what clues will tell me that it's just MD for my specific example? It's kind of challenging to look for the clues similar to the sketch from coppercoins on a 2-D image.

I looked at the coin at an angle with a loupe and the 2nd images appeared to be raised at an elevation closer to the device rather than the field. I couldn't figure out how to take a good pic from that viewpoint. Any advice on how to do that?

What are the clues on a 2-D pic to determine 3-D characteristics of flatness that is the obvious sign of MD? I thought a slim dark shadow line in the middle of a letter/device with a wider dark shadow line on the outer edge of the letter/device would indicate that the 2nd image of the letter/device was not at a flat elevation close to the same elevation of the field, but at an elevation closer to the other letter/device image. The U and the tips of the wheat for example.

I didn't notice that any of the letters were reduced in size, or did I perceive that incorrectly?

I understand the notching to look for, but I thought that only applies when the doubling is not in the same horizontal or vertical linear path. Is this a correct conclusion?

Thanks for sharing your wisdom.
Pillar of the Community
United States
715 Posts
 Posted 12/18/2019  08:24 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Oijogja to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Travis, welcome to the forum. I think one of the more common points of confusion around understanding how to recognize Machine Doubling is the phrasing "reduced" size of the devices. I've always found this a bit imprecise, but nonetheless it is how it's generally described. Let's keep this to raised devices for this explanation for now, as Machine Doubling on incuse devices looks different. On a normal coin with no Machine Doubling, raised devices will be of a certain size, but the Machine Doubling actually impinges this normal size by pressing part of the devices, skewing them and giving the appearance of doubled devices. This is the "flat, shelf-like" appearance of Machine Doubling you will come to recognize soon enough. The overall size of the devices are often unaffected, it's just that within the normal size, the machine damage creates the appearance of a secondary device by pressing into the features at play.

Don't worry about comparing the secondary image to the field of the coin, as the Machine Doubling will be raised as well, just not quite as much as the unaffected portion of the devices.

I will also say that learning to recognize these different anomalies is kind of like detective work. You use your clues and your knowledge of the process to deduce the most likely explanation for what you're seeing. Understanding that Machine Doubling is created as part of the striking of the coin as it shifts slightly against the die helps (me at least) visualize the way what I'm seeing was created. A doubled die won't always show notching, you're right. But learning to recognize the different ways in which the creation of a die can go amiss will help you see more than just a doubled image, it'll let you see how it got that way. The "extra thickness" or notched doubling that coins stuck from doubled dies show on raised devices will become clearer as you get to see more examples of them.
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Petespockets55's Avatar
United States
5774 Posts
 Posted 12/18/2019  09:43 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Petespockets55 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
........ I think one of the more common points of confusion around understanding how to recognize Machine Doubling is the phrasing "reduced" size of the devices. I've always found this a bit imprecise .......


Very true statement and hard to accurately put into words for new collectors to understand but the OP's images show it very well.

I've taken the liberty to put the phrase "reduced size of the devices" into action on Travis_Rookie's image of "US"
Hope this helps you visualize it better.

1946-LWC-DDR-Can't-Find-Listed,-Is-This-A-True-Doubled-Die?
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coop's Avatar
United States
62064 Posts
 Posted 12/18/2019  10:00 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coop to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Note on the top of the devices you can still see the contour of the design, but note that the overall size is enlarged.
1946-LWC-DDR-Can't-Find-Listed,-Is-This-A-True-Doubled-Die?
Not on your coin, the area you are looking at is incuse, reducing the size of the original size of the devices. A doubled die show a spread on the center of the devices or notches on the out side edges of devices. On Machine Doubling just the outside areas are affected, the contour is removed and looks shelf like.
1946-LWC-DDR-Can't-Find-Listed,-Is-This-A-True-Doubled-Die?
1946-LWC-DDR-Can't-Find-Listed,-Is-This-A-True-Doubled-Die?

Here are a few examples of Machine Doubling on Liberty:
1946-LWC-DDR-Can't-Find-Listed,-Is-This-A-True-Doubled-Die?
Here is a side by side of a normal coin and a DDO:
1946-LWC-DDR-Can't-Find-Listed,-Is-This-A-True-Doubled-Die?
Note how the DDO is enlarged, with a spread on the centers of the devices. Note the outside area is not affected.

What causes Machine Doubling? After the strike the machine is not adjusted firmly, will kind of do a movement after the strike altering the devices in a milla second into the devices. (kind of like a kick in the shin) When compared with a normal coin and a DDR, you can see the differences in size affect that takes place.
1946-LWC-DDR-Can't-Find-Listed,-Is-This-A-True-Doubled-Die?
Can you see the reduction of the normal size of the devices on the first image. Normal in the center and a DDR on the right with the doubled initials.

So what is the difference?
Machine Doubling is caused by machine movement after the strike. (caused by the machine is the key phrase)
On a doubled die, the hub process creates the doubling on the die, thus the term "Doubled Die."

Can Machine Doubling happen on a doubled die. Yes. Because of the same process the MD can alter a doubled die:
1946-LWC-DDR-Can't-Find-Listed,-Is-This-A-True-Doubled-Die?
Note the yellow arrows? Those are the areas affected by a doubled die, while the rest of the devices are part of the doubled die.
Hope this helps.
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United States
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 Posted 12/18/2019  11:30 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Travis_Rookie to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Wow, I picked the right forum to ask for help. You all are amazing for giving so much of your time replying to us noobs. I am very grateful.

Oijogja, Thank you for the clarification, and thank you even more for not getting into incuse devices. I'm avoiding that subject until I feel like I have grasped doubling on raised devices. Good call.

I like your advice on becoming more familiar with the process to help me visualize how the different doubling is generated. I agree it should help me and other green horns finally understand. I have already searched for documentation or videos that depict the minting process, however what I have found has been pretty weak. Do you have any good references for this subject? Thank you again for your time and sharing your knowledge.

Petespockets55, I'm blown away that someone is as kind as you are for marking up one of my pics with the yellow and red to help me learn. That really helped, the light is a little less dim now. Thank you very much.

Coop, Thank you for the elaborate response, and thank you for the awesome youtube videos (I've seen them all, but it looks like I need to watch them again). The example and explanation comparing to my pic was very helpful.

You all are the best.
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