Bad News: NY Times Article On Ebay Fake/Counterfeit Items

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Author	Replies: 9 / Views: 1,400
Morgan Fred Rest in Peace United States 2684 Posts	Posted 01/29/2006 11:20 am This article from today's (Sunday) New York Times does not bode well for ebay regarding counterfeit items. Although it centers around counterfeit jewelry, it might as well have been discussing coin auctions and certain dealers who are notorious for selling counterfeits. This might also explain ebay's recent positive actions against fraudulent sales such as reported in the below thread, "Good ebay News". The NYT article is long (two pages), so here's a few pertinent quotes: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/29/t...=1&th&emc=th "Tiffany & Company... has sued ebay for facilitating the trade of counterfeit Tiffany items on the site. "If Tiffany wins its case, not only would other lawsuits follow, but ebay's very business model would be threatened because it would be nearly impossible for the company to police a site that now has 180 million members and 60 million items for sale at any one time." And: "After the spectacular case in 2000 when a fake Richard Diebenkorn painting was nearly sold for $135,000 on ebay, the company put in place a handful of safeguards, like the PayPal buyer protection plan, an improved system for spotting ebay policy violations, and improved detection of fraud in general. But when it comes to counterfeit goods, the problem has gotten worse. "Artwork is particularly vulnerable to counterfeiting. 'The majority of things that appear on ebay are fakes,' said Joel Garzoli, an art gallery owner in San Rafael, Calif. "Mr. Durzy [from ebay] argued that 'if we began to automatically pull listings for things reported to us as fake, we could be pulling listings that are legitimate.' He added that the company had to rely on trademark owners to 'tell us something is counterfeit.' Yet trademark owners like Tiffany say they have gotten no relief." For coins, there are no trademark owners, but the last sentence above says it all: despite a preponderance of evidence stated in a complaint to ebay, it seldom pulls an auction even on an obvious counterfeit. Report this Post to the Staff

toast Pillar of the Community Australia 1091 Posts	Posted 01/29/2006 5:31 pm quote: Originally posted by Morgan Fred "If Tiffany wins its case, not only would other lawsuits follow, but ebay's very business model would be threatened because it would be nearly impossible for the company to police a site that now has 180 million members and 60 million items for sale at any one time." "If Tiffany wins the case" That is a big "IF". I wonder how much of Ebays Billions goes into Anti-Fraud in the attempt to police the site? I also wonder how much they will spend defending this test case. "...painting was nearly sold for $135,000 on ebay" The lesson here is don't buy very expensive items on ebay Report this Post to the Staff
Metalman Pillar of the Community United States 7123 Posts	Posted 01/29/2006 6:23 pm Win or lose ebay will continue as it is, they will rewrite there user agreement, and disclaim all such activity, the responsibility will be passed to the seller, and the buyer !! That is unless they can make there current user agreement stand as a prepositioned defense. Big multi billion dollar business as usual !! Rick Report this Post to the Staff
rggoodie Moderator United States 23540 Posts	Posted 01/29/2006 6:50 pm I am hoping a member of COINAF contacts her - I have tried via email without success so I will phone the Times tomorrow. rggoodie aka Richard "catch em doing something right" Report this Post to the Staff
Morgan Fred Rest in Peace United States 2684 Posts	Posted 01/29/2006 7:55 pm quote: Originally posted by Metalman Win or lose ebay will continue as it is, they will rewrite there user agreement, and disclaim all such activity, the responsibility will be passed to the seller, and the buyer !! That is unless they can make there current user agreement stand as a prepositioned defense. Big multi billion dollar business as usual !! Rick In this instance, Tiffany could cause major changes at ebay. Tiffany isn't any measly coin buyer from East Podunk, but is a huge business. ebay is becoming more sensitive to public relations and Tiffany could create a big black eye for ebay. As an ebay stockholder, I keep close tabs on ebay's stock values and what affects its stock values; it doesn't take much to send it back down. A year ago when ebay missed analysts' earnings projection by a single cent, ebay stock tumbled by some 50%. This got ebay's attention and it heard the message loud and clear from analysts and stockholders alike: if they do ANYTHING of significance which might jeopardize its earnings, the next noise ebay hears will be a toilet flushing. In the long run, this can only be good for us coin sellers and buyers. Fred Report this Post to the Staff
Susanlynn9 Forum Mom United States 5877 Posts	Posted 01/30/2006 6:24 pm Even if Tiffany wins this case, I don't think it's going to change the counterfeit coins being offered. Tiffany's case is more over trademark laws; coins don't fall into that category. Listings for designer items and trade name merchandise will be affected, but I think that's all. Report this Post to the Staff
Morgan Fred Rest in Peace United States 2684 Posts	Posted 01/30/2006 11:02 pm One way or another, ebay is gonna have to change the way it does business. In almost all categories, fraudulent items and counterfeits are flooding the market - not just coins, artwork, and jewelry, but Boy Scout patches, data cables and computer parts, electronics of all sorts, and it even goes to images of the Madonna on cheese sandwiches. ebay's reputation and current on-paper great financial figures sooner or later are going to reflect its negative aspects. Related to the same thing, ebay has absolutely got to change its feedback system. Feedback extortion has become the rule for sellers, not the exception. I just bought a low grade PCGS 89-CC Morgan and the seller is waiting for ME to give him feedback first before he gives feedback despite the fact I paid for the coin within less than a minute after the end of the auction. Grrrrrr...... Report this Post to the Staff
rggoodie Moderator United States 23540 Posts	Posted 01/30/2006 11:21 pm I spoke with the author of this article today. She was very interested in the fraud, copies and counterfeits being sold on ebay. Not only did she take information from me she is going to contact Mike for follow up. Her greatest concern is now that we have identified what is happending, how do we or ebay fix it. We even got into a discussion about ebay hiring experts in the field of Jewelry, art, coins etc to investigate reports of violations or misrepresentations or criminal activity. Mike keep us posted as to your discussion with her. rggoodie aka Richard "catch em doing something right" Report this Post to the Staff
toast Pillar of the Community Australia 1091 Posts	Posted 01/31/2006 01:57 am quote: Originally posted by Morgan Fred Related to the same thing, ebay has absolutely got to change its feedback system. Feedback extortion has become the rule for sellers, not the exception. I just bought a low grade PCGS 89-CC Morgan and the seller is waiting for ME to give him feedback first before he gives feedback despite the fact I paid for the coin within less than a minute after the end of the auction. Grrrrrr...... Don't give in there Fred. Don't post any feed back until they do. The feedback system does have some effect. If someone doesn't have 100% feedback, I read what the negitives were before I think of bidding. Some sellers have "Private" feedback. I can only imagine why. Back on topic, Counterfeits are Illegal, Counterfeit Money would be of interest to treasury and federal police. These sellers are risking alot selling these fake items. Report this Post to the Staff
Morgan Fred Rest in Peace United States 2684 Posts	Posted 02/01/2006 10:59 am quote: Originally posted by toast Back on topic, Counterfeits are Illegal, Counterfeit Money would be of interest to treasury and federal police. These sellers are risking alot selling these fake items. Several of us have been in contact with the U.S. Marshal's office within the past year. They won't bother with individual counterfeits of rare coins unless its part of a much larger operation involving tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars. They prefer to concentrate their efforts on modern circulating currency. Report this Post to the Staff
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Bad News: NY Times Article On Ebay Counterfeit Items