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Judging If A Heraclios And Son Solidus Is Authentic

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New Member

United States
42 Posts
 Posted 11/23/2008  5:12 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add Quenton to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
I am an experienced amateur collector of post-medieval central European, British, and also of American coins. I am much less experienced when it comes to ancient coins. But I like to collect relative to certain historical themes like the Roman period in what is modern Germany (Cologne for example) AND visual themes such as portraits of pairs. So, I ventured into the world of Byzantine gold upon seeing Emperor H. and son H. Constantine on ebay France (live in Europe). I was in the lead so I bid a tad more than I had planned. I just wanted to know after reading about some famous forgeries of this coin, if people might have a suggestion about how to judge authenticity. Here is the ebay URL if someone wants to see the pictures. The reverse is enough off-center to think that a forger would unlikely have made this one-- but has to be cautious! ebay: http://cgi.ebay.fr/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...260316787093

Thanks for any suggestions...
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echizento's Avatar
United States
23731 Posts
 Posted 11/23/2008  6:24 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add echizento to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
From the pictures provided by the seller it's difficult to make out much detail. This particular coin is know for many forgeries. Size of the coin is about right but the weight seems a little light. Weight should be around 4.5 grams give or take .03 grams. If you purchased it I would send it off to be graded to be sure, if not you may want to hold off on this one.
New Member
United States
42 Posts
 Posted 11/24/2008  07:01 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Quenton to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you, Echizento, that is very helpful. I will take it to an expert dealer for a look since I did purchase it but under paypal. So if it is a forgery, I am hoping (?) paypal considers that a justification to return the coin. There is a 15 day return period from that particular seller. Further advice is welcome... I may hold off on any further purchases of ancients until I learn a bit more about evaluating them.
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Sap's Avatar
Australia
16864 Posts
 Posted 11/24/2008  07:59 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Sap to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
If you're thinking of picking up ancients on ebay, an excellent first stop is FORVM's fake sellers list - anyone who repeatedly and knowingly sells fake ancients gets on this list, pretty quick. If the name isn't on the list (and your seller is not), proceed with caution. If the name is on the list, run away. Very fast.

Note that this is just a list of fakesters, not fraudsters - it won't necessarily protect you from the "gross exaggerators" - the people who hype up a common $5 coin as a super-rare $500 coin.

Another good section of the FORVM site, for coins acquired from ebay and elsewhere, is their database of fake coins. It's a bit unwieldy to search through, and it's nowhere near a complete list of all possible fake coins. So again, if a coin doesn't appear there, remain hopeful. If a coin does appear there (and in this case, it does - search the database for "Heraclius" and three very similar coins come up) then be prepared to be disappointed.

If you don't know any ancients experts or don't have any ancients dealers nearby, you can try sending the coin off to David Sear, one of the most respected names in ancient coins. For a fee, he'll provide an opinion on authenticity. He's not infallible, but his opinion is held in the highest esteem among ancients collectors. Unfortunately, it will probably take longer than your 15-day window to obtain this opinion.
Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
New Member
United States
42 Posts
 Posted 11/24/2008  09:40 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Quenton to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you Australia for the encouragement and references. I was in touch with one expert locally by phone who told me that there were lighter weight solidus as low as 4.05-4.10 gm such that the weight is not a giveaway. As Australia points out, there are a number of fakes of this coin which is evidently not so uncommon for Byzantine gold (there are over 250-300 known in better than VF condition according to one source). The one thing that I noted when looking at the registered fakes is that they tend to be more or less centered on both sides as forgers would want their coins sold. The fact that mine is significantly off center (probably reducing its value if it is real!) on the reverse, holds some hope for me. Let me know if this is not just an anxious fantasy... I await the delivery and local examination for resting the case of course.
New Member
United States
42 Posts
 Posted 11/24/2008  5:09 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Quenton to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Got more information for those wondering about weights of byzantine solidi and are uninitiated... "Lightweight solidi" often averaging around 4.20-4.30 gm were apparently used as coins of trade across regions of North Africa. 4.25 grams later became the average weight of the early Islamic dinar. While imitations were made subsequently (within 1-2 centuries later) to "Islamify" these Christian solidi exactly at a weight of 4.25 gm, the portraits on those ancient forgeries are generally crude and clearly distortions of the originals with an absence of a cross (replaced by a "T" or an "I") on the reverse. One hopefully authentic lightweight, non Islamified solidus with Heraclius (Heraclios) and son such as the one that I acquired apparently is embedded in the famed "Wilton Cross" in the British Museum (can see it on the BM website). All this has nothing to do with the authenticity of my particular acquisition... but is interesting in any case. It is also interesting that one can have an ancient valuable forgery or a modern comparatively worthless one!
New Member
United States
42 Posts
 Posted 12/03/2008  09:54 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Quenton to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Devil is in the details. I got the Heraclius and Son Solidus finally. The coin appears authentic. I am awaiting for confirmation form a local expert. But the lower weight seems to be accounted for by slight clipping in the left lower corner which does not affect the image too much. The coin is thus still quite attractive despite this and its off-center reverse. The new question is if a coin is clipped but not clipped in a way that interferes with the central image (Byzantine coins often have a margin of gold and on this one in that lower area, the margin is missing and flat rather than round-edged), how much does that affect its value? Is it the weight of gold and perfection of roundness as much of the quality of the portrait, which is excellent?
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echizento's Avatar
United States
23731 Posts
 Posted 12/03/2008  11:09 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add echizento to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Now that you have the coin in hand, can you post a new picture of it? Condition is always be a factor in determining the value. Wear, centering, damage, etc.. will effect the value somewhat.
New Member
United States
42 Posts
 Posted 12/04/2008  03:05 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Quenton to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I am one of those amateurs who has not learned how to take pictures of coins, nor how to post them! So, can't. But I have my appointment for an appraisal of this coin tonight and will let you all know what the verdict is. Thanks for your responses.
New Member
United States
42 Posts
 Posted 12/04/2008  2:08 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Quenton to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Verdict: I am pleased to say that my visual instinct worked this time. I took the coin to a very kind expert who spent a lot of time discussing the variations possible in Byzantine coinage. The Solidus is thankfully authentic, minted in Constantinople, and in fact not clipped. The weight was inaccurate on ebay! The actual weight is 4.47 g-- so, on the heavy side. The scale of the seller must not have been balanced, or it was an estimate. The only detracting factor was the off-center reverse-- which I used to reassure myself that it was not likely a forgery. That being said, I paid a fair price for a coin in nice condition, especially because of the exchange rate at the time. Despite the worry about forgeries, the truth is, according to this Byzantine specialist that I consulted, they are increasingly less common because the internet and discussion groups such as this one have so widely alerted and educated amateur collectors... One must remain appropriately vigilant however and ask each other to learn the ropes! Thanks to all for your responses!
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echizento's Avatar
United States
23731 Posts
 Posted 12/04/2008  2:14 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add echizento to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Congrats, nice buy.
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