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It Is Written Sicili On It.

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Brazil
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 Posted 04/20/2021  10:34 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add maismoedas to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
Hi again

This coin is 21 mm and 2,44 gr.

It is written Sicili on it but I could not find among Sicilian coins... probably there are more letters but it is not possible to see on the coin.

Any help is welcome


It-Is-Written-Sicili-On-It.
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Pertinax's Avatar
United Kingdom
2135 Posts
 Posted 04/26/2021  4:09 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Pertinax to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I think it might be Sicily, Philip III 1 Grano, though it seems a bit light.

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tdziemia's Avatar
United States
7962 Posts
 Posted 04/27/2021  5:01 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
That would make sense, but I could not find anything like that with various search terms.

That device in the first photo looks like the "flaming bombard" on a modern Italy 200 lire coin, but I am sure I have seen it before on an earlier Italian states coin.
Still looking...

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Gainn's Avatar
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218 Posts
 Posted 04/27/2021  7:52 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Gainn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Kingdom of Naples Philip III Bronze 2 cavalli is very similar (inscription on the reverse of that is 'SICILIAE ET HIERVSA' with a crown and crossed sceptres)
The obverse is of a similar style, but not as close (two flints and two flint locks forming a cross and a flame in each angle).
Pretty sure that reverse is on some Philip II coins so it's a puzzle.
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Spence's Avatar
United States
34430 Posts
 Posted 04/27/2021  9:02 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spence to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I don't have a CNI and this coin likely dates to later than what is covered by my Biaggi, but I'm pretty sure that @gainn has it right about this one. Here is a link to the only copy of this coin that I can find on the interwebs:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/FORVM-Ki...163661875555
"If you climb a good tree, you get a push."
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"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
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tdziemia's Avatar
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7962 Posts
 Posted 04/28/2021  07:53 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I agree this looks close. However, I think the design in the first photo is something different from the briquet + Burgundy cross used by this dynasty.
I will see if CNI lists this variant.

Edit: Yes, they both match the description of 2 cavalli variants pictured and listed in CNI, Vol.XX Plate IX,25 (maybe both are also in MIR/Varesi).

The variant in the ebay link is CNI XX, Philip III 669/677 "quattro scudetti ... intercalati da quatro fiamme" or "quattro scudetti ... intercalati da quattro rosoni" ("four small shields alternating with four flames, or with four rosettes").
The OP coin is yet another variant, and described as "quattro rosoni attorno ad uno scudetto intercalati da quattro fiamme," which translates as 4 rosettes around a small shield, alternating with four flames." Philip III 2 Cavalli CNI XX, 678 (p.256)
It is clear to me that in this case CNI calls "rosettes" something that might be called a lily in other catalogs.

The weight of the many variants of this denomination under Philip III ranges from about 1.5 to 3.5 g

For anyone else who would like to explore CNI online, here is a link: https://www.numismaticadellostato.i...oteca/corpus

If you have no idea which part of Italy your coin is from, CNI is NOT a good way to start a search. However, if you think you know the Italian state, you can use this algorithm:
1. Download the appropriate CNI volume in PDF form
2. Scroll to the end of the volume and use the "plates" (pages with photos of coins) to try and identify your coin or something close. Be warned that the photos are of low quality. IN this case, I found something that looked close in Volume XX (Naples after Charles II) Plate IX, Filippo III
3. Using the identification number from the plate, scroll up into the text section of the catalog, looking for the plate number in the left margin (in this case it was IX,25) and find the text description in the catalog (this can mean scrolling through a few hundred pages, but you will know from the Plate which monarch you are looking for).

I usually see CNI references reported as Monarch/Number (or number range), or Monarch/Plate number,photo number
Edited by tdziemia
04/28/2021 7:08 pm
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Spence's Avatar
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 Posted 04/28/2021  8:35 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spence to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Great work @tdz! I didn't realize that CNI was available online (or perhaps forgot that I once knew it...)
"If you climb a good tree, you get a push."
-----Ghanaian proverb

"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
-----King Adz
Valued Member
Brazil
119 Posts
 Posted 05/09/2021  3:47 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add maismoedas to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you all for your effort and for sharing your knowledge
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