Coin Community Family of Web Sites Join Thousands of Coin, Bullion, & Money Collectors
Join Thousands of Coin, Bullion, & Money Collectors Vancouvers #1 Coin and Paper Money Dealer Coin, Banknote and Medal Collectors's Online Mall Shop for APMEX Bullion on eBay!300,000 items to help build your collection! Royal Canadian Mint products, Canadian, Polish, American, and world coins and banknotes. Specializing in Modern Numismatics








Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?


This page may contain links that result in small commissions to keep this free site up and running.

Welcome Guest! Registering and/or logging in will remove the anchor (bottom) ads. It's Free!

I Think I'll Be Avoiding This Auction House For My Canadian Tokens.

To participate in the forum you must log in or register.
Author Previous TopicReplies: 3 / Views: 1,678Next Topic  
Pillar of the Community
daltonista's Avatar
United States
1058 Posts
 Posted 06/26/2021  01:08 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add daltonista to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers

This post isn't about a Canadian token, strictly speaking. It's about a Canadian auction house that looks to me as though they're greatly overstating the rarity (and value) of a British medallet whose Wellington obverse has been muled with a Broke token's seated Britannia reverse...a different token entirely. I'm finding it difficult to write a simple declarative sentence about the two tokens referenced in the auction description, so I'll paste that auction description in here first, as a starting point. (By the way, the sale is live online now -- see URL in my screen shot -- and closes on Monday evening, June 28. There's a bunch of Blacksmiths on the block too.)

I-Think-I'll-Be-Avoiding-This-Auction-House-For-My-Canadian-Tokens.

Got all that?

The token at auction here is a British issue known as Withers 1580 (Davis Non-local 93), but the auction description seems to be making it "Canadian by association" due to the obverse die shared with a mule from the Partrick collection that was hammered down at US $4,800, including fees. See Lot #97201 in this year's March 21 sale. That one is a striking token indeed, graded by NGC as AU 55 BN, and, as a discovery piece, almost certainly unique. Concerning that token, here's how Heritage tries to unscrew the inscrutable:

"Br-Unl. (cf. Br-879 for reverse), WE-Unl., WEL-Unl., Withers-1581...mule of the obv. of Davis Non-local, no. 93, and rev. of Br. 879, C.327, 329."

I-Think-I'll-Be-Avoiding-This-Auction-House-For-My-Canadian-Tokens.

It took me about a half dozen readings of the Wellington/Blucher description from the Canadian auction before I finally realized that the claim that it's "only 1 of 2 to ever be offered to the public" means not that there are only two examples of this token, which can easily be refuted, but that there are only two tokens that bear this particular Wellington effigy. That makes it rare?

Okay, so once we've got that figured out, the obvious question is whether both of these will end up in the next edition of Charlton, or will it be the unique mule by itself, if even that?

Here's another question, particularly for collectors (like me) of the early 19th-century British token series, which can include many of these "Anglo-Canadian" issues: How does this particular Wellington/Blucher token in F-gF condition merit a $450 starting bid other than by association with the unique mule sold by Heritage three months ago? Admittedly, they're rare, and certainly worthy of The Withers RRR designation. I'd estimate that I've encountered only six or eight over the last 30 years -- all in higher grade than this one -- but I've never seen one sell for over GBP 75, and neither of mine cost anywhere near that...see below:

I-Think-I'll-Be-Avoiding-This-Auction-House-For-My-Canadian-Tokens.
I-Think-I'll-Be-Avoiding-This-Auction-House-For-My-Canadian-Tokens.

Am I alone (or crazy) in thinking that this auction house is "creating" something here out of nothing more than opportunism? Piggybacking on another token's true rarity? Misleading? I guess it'll be interesting to see if anyone takes them up on their starting bid.

Best to all!
Tom



"If everything seems to be under control, you're just not going fast enough."
--- Mario Andretti


Valued Member
blargish's Avatar
United States
178 Posts
 Posted 06/26/2021  1:18 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add blargish to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I would imagine that auction houses creating value out of opportunism and recent highly-publicized sales is nothing new. It is clear from the auction description that they associate the value of their piece with the recent sale of the Partrick mule, and this only demonstrates how it is up to the buyer to do their own due diligence with such specimens.

While a little opportunism is understandable, I am at a loss to explain the last sentence: "A rare opportunity to acquire this rare Wellington Obverse issue and should be considered as only 1 of 2 to be ever offered to the public."

To me, this is a blatantly misleading claim. I understand your reasoning, Tom, that it seems they are referring to the Wellington effigy, but the way in which it is worded appears that they are trying to catch someone into thinking it's only 1 of 2 specimens in existence.

As for whether the varieties should end up in Charlton, the unique mule with the reverse of Br 879 has a claim. Arguments can be made as to the validity of its "Canadian" association, but the fact that the reverse die is that used in a well-established Canadian series (ie. the Broke tokens) warrants its inclusion, not to mention that many of the Wellington tokens already listed in Charlton have dubious origins. The Wellington/Blucher token is clearly a British issue and should be treated as such.

Again, Breton 996 and the Isle of Man connection come to mind, a variety that always seems to follow me around in conversation!

Cheers,

Will
Pillar of the Community
daltonista's Avatar
United States
1058 Posts
 Posted 06/26/2021  2:18 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add daltonista to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Blargish wrote:
Quote:
...it seems they are referring to the Wellington effigy, but the way in which it is worded appears that they are trying to catch someone into thinking it's only 1 of 2 specimens in existence.

My sentiments exactly, but stated much more economically than I could have in my "Tale of Two Tokens." Late last night I was thanking my long-deceased parents for sending me to a school where I learned how to diagram sentences!

BTW, Will, wouldn't you agree that the Heritage attribution for the Partrick piece is a work of art all by itself?


"If everything seems to be under control, you're just not going fast enough."
--- Mario Andretti


Moderator
Learn More...
SPP-Ottawa's Avatar
Canada
10456 Posts
 Posted 06/26/2021  5:16 pm  Show Profile   Check SPP-Ottawa's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add SPP-Ottawa to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
There have been a number of discussions of all the Canadian auction houses over years on CCF. Just do a search in this sub-forum.
"Discovery follows discovery, each both raising and answering questions, each ending a long search, and each providing the new instruments for a new search." -- J. Robert Oppenheimer

Content of this post is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 3.0 Unported License. See: http://creativecommons.org/licenses...0/deed.en_US

My eBay store
  Previous TopicReplies: 3 / Views: 1,678Next Topic  

To participate in the forum you must log in or register.



    




Disclaimer: While a tremendous amount of effort goes into ensuring the accuracy of the information contained in this site, Coin Community assumes no liability for errors. Copyright 2005 - 2026 Coin Community Family- all rights reserved worldwide. Use of any images or content on this website without prior written permission of Coin Community or the original lender is strictly prohibited.
Contact Us  |  Advertise Here  |  Privacy Policy / Terms of Use

Coin Community Forum © 2005 - 2026 Coin Community Forums
It took 0.28 seconds to rattle this change. Forums