Coin Community Family of Web Sites Join Thousands of Coin, Bullion, & Money Collectors
Coin, Banknote and Medal Collectors's Online Mall Join Thousands of Coin, Bullion, & Money Collectors Royal Canadian Mint products, Canadian, Polish, American, and world coins and banknotes. Specializing in Modern Numismatics Vancouvers #1 Coin and Paper Money Dealer Royal Estate Auctions - $1 Coin Auctions300,000 items to help build your collection!








Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?


This page may contain links that result in small commissions to keep this free site up and running.

Welcome Guest! Registering and/or logging in will remove the anchor (bottom) ads. It's Free!

French L'an 8 Bb 5 Centimes... Error?

To participate in the forum you must log in or register.
Author Previous TopicReplies: 6 / Views: 2,332Next Topic  
Valued Member

United States
365 Posts
 Posted 01/16/2009  10:49 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add SeriousCERES to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
Don't know how else to ask but to say: what is going on with this coin!?

Just snagged this very interesting item on ebay, won't have it in hand for a little bit but was eager to get thoughts from the forum about the coin's reverse: in addition to the obverse bust impression, the 'cinq' and 'centimes' letters (I and N in particular) suggest further strangeness...

It looks like it MAY be a 5 centimes over 1 decime restrike--although I'm not convinced--but according to Le Franc VII (see F.114) none of that type were made in Strasbourg!

Any thoughts?





Image: French-L'an-8-Bb-5-Centimes...-Error? an8bbo2.jpg
87.05 KB


Image: French-L'an-8-Bb-5-Centimes...-Error? an8bbr2.jpg
87.08 KB
New Member
United States
18 Posts
 Posted 01/16/2009  9:33 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add alexgutmancoins to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Clashed dies?
Pillar of the Community
KurtS's Avatar
United States
5318 Posts
 Posted 01/17/2009  12:17 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add KurtS to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Interesting...what is the alignment of this coin? Is the "BB" on the reverse opposite the top of the head on the obverse?
I've seen something similar on US Lincoln cents and Australian pennies from the 40s. I think the term is "ghosting", but I forget the exact process.
Valued Member
United States
365 Posts
 Posted 01/17/2009  10:50 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SeriousCERES to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The alignment on this coin should be standard coin alignment (not medal), but I won't know for sure till it arrives--it would be yet another treat to this coin if it were misaligned! Yes, the BB is on the reverse 6 o'clock, which would normally line up with the top of the bust.
I did some searching and I think you're right on the mark with 'ghosting'. I found an example via Google of an English penny on this website showing the same effect as what the French coin shows (See http://www.littlemistakes.com/World...not/not.htm).

The author is at pains to assert that ghosting is not a brockage error, but to my mind that distinction does not diminish the interest of ghosting! (It'd be nice if the author would say why it's so important to not confuse ghosting/clipping etc with brockages.)

I won't claim to understand how ghosting occurs, maybe someone here can give us a better picture, but it seems to have to do with the pressure applied to the metal on the obverse exceeding the amount applied during the strike to the reverse, resulting in the main obverse device 'peeking through' the reverse. Another website I found says that in some cases at least ghosting effects had to do with the metals used and that newer alloys were able to minimize its occurrence. (Cf. http://www.24carat.co.uk/1926modifi...yframe.html)

Thanks for the lead, KurtS!

-SC



Moderator
Learn More...
Sap's Avatar
Australia
16862 Posts
 Posted 01/18/2009  06:27 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Sap to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
"Ghosting" is not a "mint error" in the same sense as a die clash or mis-strike. It's caused by coin dies having a large, high-relief area (often a large portrait) striking a flan that's too thin and hard at too high a speed, so in effect it's proof of a systemic flaw in the actual design process and method of striking those coins. Certain coins are susceptible to ghosting; for those coins, the entire type is normally affected: almost all specimens will show ghosting to some degree. In such cases, only the most extreme, spectacular examples of the effect, or coins which don't show the effect at all, will command a premium.

British pennies are an excellent example of a design that was susceptible to ghosting. In the 1920's the portrait of George V was specifically modified to try to minimise the ghosting effect.
Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
Valued Member
United States
365 Posts
 Posted 01/18/2009  2:43 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SeriousCERES to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Ah, I see, thank you for clarifying the distinction that the author was making. The difference is therefore between things that are in fact "normal" results of the minting process--due to design flaws--and things that are mistakes during minting--die caps, broken dies, brockages where multiple coins are struck at once, etc. The former tend to be less valuable on the market than the latter, since the latter are more rare occurrences.
For this coin, the question becomes: how often does one find ghosting in the type? A reason to take another good look at my other decimes... I'm just surprised that the literature doesn't talk about this as a common feature of these, whereas the George V coin seems to be a very well-known example and the fact that it was changed to respond to the problem is significant. The decime design doesn't seem to have undergone changes. Now, some of these were minted with bell metal, and maybe ghosting occurred more with these strikes.
I'm still wondering though if there isn't more going on with this coin than the ghosting. I'm looking forward to examining the reverse lettering more closely!
Valued Member
United States
365 Posts
 Posted 02/12/2009  8:23 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SeriousCERES to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Just one last note about this coin, which has arrived in the mail at last.

In hand, the ghosting on the reverse is even more evident than in the photo. What I found even more intriguing, however, is that the obverse also shows substantial ghosting from the reverse design! This leads me to think that the planchet in this case was a weak alloy: I've not found evidence of ghosting like this on any other 5 centimes of this type.
Under a magnifying glass, I can't see anything suggesting an overdate and the mess around the letters in "Centimes" all looks like worn down, broken dies and nothing more sinister. (Too bad!)

Cheers to all the posters on this thread and thanks for reading about this old piece of copper!

-SCS
  Previous TopicReplies: 6 / Views: 2,332Next Topic  

To participate in the forum you must log in or register.



    




Disclaimer: While a tremendous amount of effort goes into ensuring the accuracy of the information contained in this site, Coin Community assumes no liability for errors. Copyright 2005 - 2026 Coin Community Family- all rights reserved worldwide. Use of any images or content on this website without prior written permission of Coin Community or the original lender is strictly prohibited.
Contact Us  |  Advertise Here  |  Privacy Policy / Terms of Use

Coin Community Forum © 2005 - 2026 Coin Community Forums
It took 0.33 seconds to rattle this change. Forums