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1917 Philadelphia LWC DDO ?

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shantiom's Avatar
United States
522 Posts
 Posted 12/21/2021  7:22 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add shantiom to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
The doubling here appears not to be Class I, CCW as with WDDO-01.I am having a hard time attributing this potential DDO, any thoughts on this coin are appreciated!

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merclover's Avatar
United States
10635 Posts
 Posted 12/21/2021  9:03 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add merclover to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I see circulation flattening, not a DDO.
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John1's Avatar
United States
56855 Posts
 Posted 12/22/2021  04:41 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add John1 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I am thinking not a DDO,but let's wait for a pro or two to chime in.
John1
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koinpro's Avatar
United States
1781 Posts
 Posted 12/22/2021  06:23 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add koinpro to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Not the doubled die. Even in this grade the doubling is evident.
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shantiom's Avatar
United States
522 Posts
 Posted 12/22/2021  10:24 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add shantiom to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I am providing my comments in the photos and have marked the relevant portions. My statements focus on the presence of doubling or notching, if an alternative option of flattening is your conclusion, or if the grade is too worn to make a conclusive statement, please share. Trying to build a skill of identifying DDO, DDRs in G8 to high XF--harder but more affordable to build a set. Thank you!


1917-Philadelphia-LWC-DDO-?
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Chase007's Avatar
United States
7516 Posts
 Posted 12/22/2021  11:05 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Chase007 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
As mentioned it does not look like a DDO,I see circulation contact mark, flattening and some MD
http://doubleddie.com/288601.html
http://www.varietyvista.com/01a%20L...7PDDO001.htm
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coop's Avatar
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62064 Posts
 Posted 12/22/2021  12:21 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coop to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Note the areas you are looking on each circled area? All are on the outside/inside edges of the devices. That is where Machine Doubling happens. You can have Machine Doubling on a doubled die or on a normal die. It all depends on the machine. When a coin is highly circulated you get a lot of flattening of devices. So it makes it hard to tell what was there before the circulation flattening. But if there are outstanding die markers, that might help identify a known die number. If any should have created a DDO from what I can see it could be a class 6 doubled die. So you night check the listings for these. Best first to make side by sides to see what the base of the devices could be. (being that is what is left of height of the devices on your coin) Best to divide the images on the obverse into 5 areas.
(Rotation of devices with the horizontal on Liberty)

CENT WHEAT:
OBVERSE
IN GOD: 36 CW
D_WE_T: 0
TRUST: 34 CCW
REVERSE:
E-PLURIB: 27 CW
BUS_UNUM: 24 CCW

1. IN GOD (36 CCW)
2. D WE T (-0-)
3. TRUST (34 CW)
4. LIBERTY (-0-)
5. DATE (-0-)
Why do I divide them that way? Because the wider the view, the easier it is to see the actual spread of the coins devices. The spread is the key. If you look at the outside/inside areas of MD, it affects those areas the most. So create a set of a normal die, your coin and see where the foundations (taking in consideration device flattening) to see if there is a difference in size of the base of the devices. Lets start there. A set of images in that pattern? One set for regular and one set for your coin and see what you really have on your coin. Then you can see if the devices are normal/doubled/showing spread/flattening. This will be a helper for all to want to learn to see how to do this. If you can't edit images, then please included them here and I can help you. When cropping the images, make sure to include a bit wider shot to make sure to make the images all the same sizes.

How do I determine a Horizontal base line. I rotate the image to put a base line with an underline under Liberty. I usually make this line longer than LIBERTY to see if the base image needs to be rotated slightly. (we are talking tenth parts of a degree accurate) when the line is an exact match. that is the base line on your coin. The larger the base line images are, the more accurate the level line becomes. For images I use most images from PCGS and use them because they have sizes up to 6000 wide/tall of two images. I even enlarge up to 8000 wide/tall on two images and a single image to 4000. From the 4000 width image, then after being leveled, then I crop the images as I mentioned above.
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CoopHome: How can you determine spread on circulated coins? (use of side by sides)
Edited by coop
12/23/2021 12:15 pm
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shantiom's Avatar
United States
522 Posts
 Posted 12/22/2021  3:48 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add shantiom to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Just wow! I need to digest this awesomeness Coop, this is so appreciated, thank you for taking the time to educate!

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coop's Avatar
United States
62064 Posts
 Posted 12/23/2021  12:12 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coop to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
That is just part of the story. I left off yesterday with a question that was not asked. How can you tell a DDO from a regular coin in circulation coins? Well I used the same setup process as the information above with a G-08 graded normal coin and a same grade DDO coin to show the differences that can be seen on even circulation coins:
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So there will be seen a spread even on circulated coins, but you have to look for the differences on a circulated DDO versus the circulated normal coin. With the white arrows it will show the spread on the devices.
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United States
1204 Posts
 Posted 12/23/2021  3:19 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add sheldius to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
As coop stated, not the DDO. But I do see a lot of circulation hits that have spread the metal of the letter in different directions. And some MD on some of the letters.
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