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 Replies: 16 / Views: 2,248 |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts |
Recently two coins sold on ebay - here are the links. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...380104708910http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...260363339024The two coins are an 1830 EoMo a very rare 8R and an 1845 Ga also a rare 8R. They sold for amounts over $500 and $300. I believe they are alterations of original coins or they were struck/cast from dies or molds made from late dated original 8Rs. Both coins use a design not adopted in Mexico until the 1880's. I brought this to the attention of the seller, and got the following answer (in part): Dragon's teeth was a devised used by Mexican mint
to deter counterfeiting in China, US, and Europe. This
particular coin, however, I believe was made during that
time, and I repeat, no alteration was done on the surface
of the coin. I am not sure if it was made in China, or US.
Cap & Rays made in US, europe, or China does not
mean that the coin is not genuine, being accepted at
that time at par with Mexican minted Cap & Rays.Following the logic of this reply - any counterfeit that circulated as real alongside original 8Rs is GENUINE. Neither the country of production nor the date of actual creation has any bearing on the coin being GENUINE. Does anyone accept this as a legitimate definition of "Genuine"? |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
10045 Posts |
Quote:
Cap & Rays made in US, europe, or China does not
mean that the coin is not genuine  I wonder if the government of Spain or Mexico at that time would agree with that logic? I'm sure those who passed contemporary counterfeits didn't tell merchants either. |
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
5362 Posts |
A second element of this story is that both of these coins originated in a legitimate auction. The seller in this case, must have purchased the coins from that auction which is why they are now so sure they are real.
The fact of the matter is that even the best auction houses will miss some forgeries. The key is will the auctioneer accept a return if a coin is found to be a fake.
You can fool all of the poeple some of the time, and some of the people all of the time, but you can not fool all of the peeople all of the time.
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Locked
822 Posts |
Quote:
Cap & Rays made in US, europe, or China does not mean that the coin is not genuine, being accepted at that time at par with Mexican minted Cap & Rays. Well that is about the dumbest thing I've ever heard. |
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Pillar of the Community
Spain
1361 Posts |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5318 Posts |
Wow...well-spotted too!  That sure looks like the same exact coin/alteration/etc. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts |
manilagalleontrade You are 100 % correct it is the identical coin only now it has a higher priced brother. I wonder how it made it full circle? Who originally posted it? Perhaps that person would know how it got to the auction. It appeared here on the Forum and was diagnosed as a forgery on July 11, 2007. About 4 months later, it was sold in an Auction by the Philippine Numismatic and Aquarian Society on November 25, 2007 - with no warning that it was a fraud. I would really like to know where the coin was in between those two dates and who is responsible for not stopping the fraud. And now it surfaces and sells on ebay for $305 in Feb., 2009 also with no warning. Too bad ebay policy forbits us from contacting the winning bidder. He is being ripped off big time and he may rip-off the next buyer. That is a shame that once this coin was identified as a fraud, that it made its way back onto the market with no warning. But I guess that for some people a few dollars is more important than honesty. 
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Pillar of the Community
Spain
1361 Posts |
The PNAS (Philippine Numimatic and Antiquarian Society) is one of the oldest numismatic society (1929). Now they have a problem. There is a power struggle and this is one of the reasons why the club is in disarray. The old leaders don't want to give the presidency to the new elected leaders. So there are 2 groups now and the case is in court. One group is more concerned of the collectors while the other is more concern on money making. The real profesionals in the club are in a wait and see attitude on what will happen to the club.
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Pillar of the Community
Spain
1361 Posts |
I'm not into mexican reales but the 1906s is one of the most fake/altered coin. In the Philippine there was this guy known for altering 1903s to 1906s. And he does it perfectly so most probably he can alter any coin. Normally altered coins are dark toned to cover the burn marks of the coin, some are dipped into silver to cover it.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts |
Perhaps the source of the altered date is the Philippines. The craftsmanship in this case is apparently very good - that matches the description of the 1903 alterations as well.
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Moderator
 Australia
16826 Posts |
Back to the OP: Quote:
Does anyone accept this as a legitimate definition of "Genuine"? No. "Genuine" means to actually be what they purport to be. The only "genuine" 1880 Mexican dollars were the ones made in Mexico in 1880. Coins made to the correct weight and fineness at a later date in some kind of official mint, foreign or local, are "restrikes" (the Maria Theresa thalers are an excellent example of this). Where the differences between restrike and genuine are well known, you can have "genuine restrikes" and they can be collected as such, but these should not be called "genuine coins", or confused with them. Unofficially produced coins, or coins produced "officially" but to deliberately wrong specifications, I would class as "counterfeits". Altered dates might have been "genuine", but once they've been altered, they can't be called "genuine" anymore. Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
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Pillar of the Community
Spain
1361 Posts |
Quote:
coins produced "officially" but to deliberately wrong specifications, I would class as "counterfeits".
If it is officially produced wouldn't you call it an error rather than a counterfeit? |
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Moderator
Australia
16826 Posts |
If the wrong specifications are a deliberate choice of the mint (or someone at the mint), with intent to deceive, then no, it's a counterfeit, not an error. I realise that "intent" might be hard to judge, a hundred years or more after the fact, but a reasonable guess can often be made.
I'm thinking particularly of fake coins produced by one country for use in another (such as the fake Russian coppers produced by Sweden in the 1700's) or fake coins produced "on the sly" with official dies by opportunistic mint-workers.
Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
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Pillar of the Community
Spain
1361 Posts |
Quote:
I realise that "intent" might be hard to judge, a hundred years or more after the fact, but a reasonable guess can often be made. , What comes into my mind is the Lincoln cents muled with the reverse of a dime. A mint worker has done it intentionally and it is obvious from the kind of "error", and I think there is quiet a number of errors out there that are intentionally done by mint workers to make extra money. But like what you said it is hard to judge if it was intentional. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts |
I agree with SAP. To be Genuine a coin must be what it purports to be in each and every respect. That may be idealistic but it works for me.
I have been trying to list the categories of "non-genuine" coins for some time. There are several factors that go into the list and number of variables can get confusing. It also seems every time I complete a list an exception arises.
Here are a couple of those thorny issues.
The Maria Theresa restrikes were also made in Unauthorized Mints by official government entities (e.g. Birmingham, England after 1935) - Are they counterfeit? Regular Restrikes? or in a class of their own.
If an off metal planchet is smuggled into a mint struck using real dies and tehn released along with original coins - what is it?
If the same off metal planchet were used with the knowledge of the government but not the public does it make a difference?
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Pillar of the Community
Spain
1361 Posts |
I think anything unauthorized (unofficial) and done in a way to copy the original and to make it pass as original with bad intent is counterfeit. Even how good the workmanship is.
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Replies: 16 / Views: 2,248 |
Posted 02/21/2009 4:11 pm
