Need ID Help On A Few Medievals (Mostly French)

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chirrrs Valued Member United States 164 Posts	Posted 10/15/2022 12:57 am I've got a couple of handfuls of medieval coins to identify over time, and have been slowly getting through them. This week a figured out a few, so the pile is getting smaller! Take a look at these and see if you can identify any or at least point me in the right direction: (1) Sorry about the washed out image. I can try and take another if needed, but hopefully this shows enough detail to work with. It looks to me like a French denier from either Jean II, Charles VI, Charles VII, or Louis XI. I found far more varieties for Charles VI, so here are some that share some of the same elements as mine: https://www.cgb.fr/charles-vi-le-fo...17210,a.html https://www.cgb.fr/charles-vi-le-fo...80318,a.html https://www.cgb.fr/charles-vi-le-fo...65388,a.html http://www.monnaiesdantan.com/vso10...ere-p267.htm http://www.monnaiesdantan.com/vso9/...ere-p320.htm These are mostly variations on Dy398, but in each of them, either the style of FRAN is slightly different, the reverse cross and/or fleur de lis are different, or both. The other possibilities are Charles VII: http://numismatique-de-charles-vii....ype.php#1123 Jean II: http://ourtac2.free.fr/divers/roisd...Dy%20334.jpg or, Louis XI: Dy561A (2) This looks like either Dy529 or Dy530 from Charles VII. I came across quite a few designs from various kings with similar designs, but it's the absence of the "trilobe" around the fleur de lis that narrow this one down to my eyes. (3) These are both similar to #2 with the exception that there is something else beneath the fleur de lis. I haven't come across anything like it yet, but I'm sure it's out there! (4) This may not be French. The French denier of Francois I in Dy878 looks close, but the cross isn't right. The Liard from Henri II in Dy1002 is closer, but on the reverse there is a star above the cross in mine. It appears that is the location of the mint mark on Dy1002? That would be the Chambery mintmark from 1548-1552, but it would be above the cross as opposed to below it in the images I have seen with regular lettered mintmarks. This one is also similar: https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces198029.html (5) I feel fairly confident that this is a Liard from Henri III in Dy1146: https://www.cgbfr.com/henri-iii-lia...90552,a.html Dy 1150 and 1168 as well as Dy 1268 from Henri IV also look close, but 1146 seems to be the best bet. The cross on the reverse is very specific, likely the cross of St. Esprit. While the obverse appears on quite a few varieties of coins, that reverse is what makes it distinct. I'll probably wait a couple of days before posting the next set that I'm working on. That will give me a little more time to get as close as I can on my own and also not have a single post with so much information and photos that it becomes overwhelming to look at. The info included for just these 5 is enough! Thanks for any help! Edited by chirrrs 10/15/2022 02:00 am Report this Post to the Staff

erafjel Pillar of the Community Sweden 2124 Posts	Posted 10/15/2022 10:19 am Well, chirrrs, you have done most of the work already. Your coin #1 I would say is a Charles VI denier parisis, Dy 398 or one of its varieties. I base that on 1) the lack of bars below and above FRAN (Charles VII has a bar below, Louis XI bars above and below), and those are usually visible also on worn coins; 2) at the bottom of the obverse there are remains of characters that could match the LV in KAROLVS (I cannot make it match IOHANNES or LUDOVICVS); 3) to some extent the shape of the cross with its fleurs de lys, which at least do not contradict Charles VI. The many issues of this coin made under Charles VI leaves room for the variation from your linked examples that you see. The weight - even if worn - might give an indication if it is an earlier or later issue. I'll pass on coin #2. I think it is difficult to say with certainty that there is no trilobe around the fleurs, from the photo at least, the coin being as worn as it is. It would be Dy 529 in that case, Dy 530 has the fleurs de lys differently arranged. Dy 529 is quite rare. #3: ? A mystery. Coin #4 is Francois I, liard à l'F (Dy 930), with mint mark for Chambery as you have deduced. Not sure what you mean with the star being above the cross rather than below ... the orientation of reverse and obverse can certainly vary on these coins. You are quite right about #5: Henry III, liard with cross of St. Esprit (Dy 1146). The cross used by Henry IV looks different. I also think I can see ET P at the obverse top right, it would be ET N for Henry IV (and I'm not sure any of his liards had the legend oriented this way, Henry III's had). Report this Post to the Staff
chirrrs Valued Member United States 164 Posts	Posted 10/15/2022 1:45 pm Quote: Coin #4 is Francois I, liard à l'F (Dy 930), with mint mark for Chambery as you have deduced. Not sure what you mean with the star being above the cross rather than below ... the orientation of reverse and obverse can certainly vary on these coins. I meant that if you orient the coin so that the top point of the star is pointing up, it is above the cross whereas all of the others that I have come across have the mint mark below it. That may not have always been the case or the mint mark may have been upside down for some reason, but I am not sure. Thanks for the confirmations on these, I feel pretty good that I'm getting better at some of these! I've been collecting mostly French and English coins of these periods, and your suggestion to pick up the "Les Monnaies Francaises Royales" books by Duplessy has been beyond helpful! I assume it is the most complete text on the subject although perhaps missing more updated finds? In any event, it covers so much that even if I cannot find exactly what I am looking for, it does tend to help narrow down the who and when significantly to allow web searching to become much easier. Report this Post to the Staff
erafjel Pillar of the Community Sweden 2124 Posts	Posted 10/15/2022 5:30 pm Quote: I meant that if you orient the coin so that the top point of the star is pointing up, it is above the cross Ok, I see what you mean. When I do a search for the type, most seem to have the star oriented the same way as yours. Some don't, and I believe the mint mark was put on the die using a punch, so it could end up with different orientations. Quote: I feel pretty good that I'm getting better at some of these! Your post proved you are pretty good at it! About reference books, yes, Duplessy is the most up to date and complete work. I haven't seen much about new finds of French medievals, there seems to be more to discover about later royal coins - not that I systematically keep track of everything published ... The classical reference work for French royal coins is otherwise Lafaurie's Les Monnaies des Rois de France, in two volumes, from the 1950s. It lacks a few types found in Duplessy, it does not illustrate all coins, but it has more information about the mints, where and when they were active. Unless you are interested in that, you will do fine with Duplessy. Report this Post to the Staff
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