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Coin With Persian Script (I Think) That I Can't ID

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Pillar of the Community

Australia
1616 Posts
 Posted 01/23/2023  10:30 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add David Graham to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
Hi all,

Another ancient copper coin that I can't ID. I thought the distinctive pattern on 1 side would help but nothing on Zeno so am again turning to the wealth of knowledge that constitutes the CC members.

Thanks

Weight = 5.57g
Diam. = 17.0-17.3mm
Material = copper (maybe billon with very low Ag content)

Coin-With-Persian-Script-I-Think-That-I-Can't-ID
Coin-With-Persian-Script-I-Think-That-I-Can't-ID
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Sap's Avatar
Australia
16845 Posts
 Posted 01/23/2023  11:09 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Sap to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
MY guess would be a Iranian "civic copper". But I'm not sure what the object on the reverse is supposed to be. Maybe a flower?
Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
Pillar of the Community
Australia
1616 Posts
 Posted 01/24/2023  04:13 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add David Graham to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@Sap - thanks. I thought flower as well or maybe fanciful bulls head with horns? Can you please explain what is meant by a "civic copper". I can find lots of examples of civic coppers but can't seem to find any indication of what the term implies. Thanks
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Australia
16845 Posts
 Posted 01/24/2023  5:06 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Sap to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
"Civic coppers" were struck by local authorities in cities, rather than by the central government mint. This follows the tradition set by the earlier Persian empires, the early Caliphate and even the eastern Romans, where the central government controlled silver and gold coins, but coppers were struck locally and intended for local use only. Their design is entirely un-standardized; the city officials put whatever they liked on the coins. They tend not to name the rulers (either civic or national) or bear dates, hence their being known as "anonymous civic coppers", making attributing them that much more difficult. Many chose distinctive "mintmark" images that could be linked to their specific city, not entirely unlike the mintmark-pictures we can find on Indian States coins.

They are still considered "Iranian coins", and are listed as such in the coin catalogues, because the central government fully authorized the local city rulers to do this in order to provide small change for the local populace, even if the coins were not expected to ever see circulation outside of the city where they were struck. There was nothing legally stopping their circulation elsewhere, but people tended not to bring copper coins with them when they travelled.

The "anonymous civic copper" series also includes cities in what is now Afghanistan and Central Asia.
Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
Pillar of the Community
Australia
1616 Posts
 Posted 01/24/2023  9:49 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add David Graham to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks Sap. It sounds similar to the German notgeld coins although these always (as far as I know) had the town identified.
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Australia
16845 Posts
 Posted 01/24/2023  10:54 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Sap to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The towns name is usually inscribed on Civic coppers, though the name may be hard to read.

And yes, German Notgeld tokens are probably the closest analogy we will find in the modern coinage series. The difference being that Notgeld tokens certainly had far more issuers (thousands of different issuing towns, if I recall correctly, compared to about a hundred mint-cities in Iran and surrounds), and Notgeld are definitely "tokens", not "coins", being issued as substitute-coins because the Government of the day couldn't issue regular coins due to bankruptcy. Notgeld coins definitely would not have been accepted outside of the town they were issued in, while civic coppers probably would have been accepted - it just didn't happen very often. I don't think the German government ever explicitly legalized, authorized or sanctioned Notgeld issue, they were just powerless to stop it.

With just a few notable exceptions (like the Hamburg city-state coins), most German notgeld is not listed in the world coin catalogues. Anonymous civic coppers are listed, though the listings may be incomplete. While there were fewer issuing cities, there are probably more different types per city in the Iranian civic copper series than in the German Notgeld series.
Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
Pillar of the Community
Australia
1616 Posts
 Posted 01/24/2023  11:43 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add David Graham to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks Sap although I do have a few further questions. I was under the impression that tokens were issued by a vendor or co-operative rather than a government authority and although swapped between people, only the vendor was legally required to redeem them for goods. I always thought notgeld was issued by the local authority in place of federal currency even if not sanctioned by the Federal government. Were local vendors obliged (pressured) to accept notgeld?
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United Kingdom
1323 Posts
 Posted 01/26/2023  2:24 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add andyg to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I think this might just be a mangir from Egypt,
try this one
https://www.zeno.ru/showphoto.php?photo=260077
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Australia
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 Posted 01/27/2023  04:21 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add David Graham to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@andyg - WOW
That's definitely on the money. I stand (sit at my PC) in awe...
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United Kingdom
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 Posted 01/27/2023  4:59 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add andyg to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
There's a rather good book, written some time ago - in 1911 - by WH Valentine called Modern (!) Copper coins of the Muhammadan States, I recommend it if you see it for sale - it was reprinted in the early 70's.

I started with the thought "that doesn't look Iranian to me", I didn't find the exact coin in the book but I did find one suspiciously similar, then I could look on Zeno in roughly the right place....
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