Counterfeit 1817 8 Reales

Moderators, can we move this to the main World Coin category?

Great piece! There's one matching example in SwamperBob's (Robert Gurney's) book files - 1817-E-MoJP-001-RG. That's a much more worn example, to where the base metal core is fully exposed (perhaps a tad of silver or white metal mixed in the alloy looking at the color, but seems mainly coppery). As we see with this high grade example here, the planchet was of course silvered or pickled to "pass".

Now, super interesting that you and your partner found a 2nd example PLUS what you suspect may be an unstruck planchet for these. That of course might point to that area as the source for this counterfeit. Do you have pics of the other piece and that possible unstruck planchet?

Also, what do the edges look like?

I'm guessing you guys split the find one and one... but truthfully, they should be kept together ESPECIALLY if the unstruck blank was for these. That keeps a really interesting provenance intact.

Bob, I hope it's OK to show your example compared to this piece:

...and here's the blank copper planchet alongside one of the counterfeits, and an edge shot. All coins and the planchet have smooth edges. Thanks.

Hi John, great post and great finds! Realeswatcher linked me to this thread as I am a Detectorist also who recently discovered a 8 Reales. I hope you and your friend do an extensive search of the location where you found those counterfeits. Sounds like you located a possible point of origin of counterfeits. Keep us posted. I hope you find more!

SwamperBob and Realeswatcher I've been helping me with my Coin find, and I hope you get to talk with them about your finds. Although I'm new to the forum it seems they are experts. I'm hoping to obtain some books that Bob has put out over the years. Between my find, and your post, I'm really getting interested in reading up on the subject of Spanish silver counterfeits.

swamperbob - "Great find. Must be near the location where these were actually made. Do you know anything of the history of the plot of land where these were found."

Hi Bob - I don't, other than these were found on the property of a standing 1860's era home with a late 1700s cellar hole in a hayfield about 200 yards south of there. There's a woman at the Vermont State archives who's done some research on Vermont counterfeiting history and my plan is to contact her to possibly help out. I scanned numerous old newspaper articles online through the Chronicling of America website and came up empty after using searches with the names listed on the old Walling 1857 and Beers 1873 maps. Hopefully she'll be able to help me out, but my plan is to return to the site to see if I can locate any more. Very kind people who own the standing home.

diggindude - " Hi John, great post and great finds! Realeswatcher linked me to this thread as I am a Detectorist also who recently discovered a 8 Reales. I hope you and your friend do an extensive search of the location where you found those counterfeits. Sounds like you located a possible point of origin of counterfeits. Keep us posted. I hope you find more!

SwamperBob and Realeswatcher I've been helping me with my Coin find, and I hope you get to talk with them about your finds. Although I'm new to the forum it seems they are experts. I'm hoping to obtain some books that Bob has put out over the years. Between my find, and your post, I'm really getting interested in reading up on the subject of Spanish silver counterfeits."

Thanks for your comments! I'll check your post out also. It'll be hard to prove the location as a source definitively though, unless I can find some historical support. Not that I won't try. Who knows - Daddy could've given his kid a few old, worthless counterfeits at some point years later to play with and they lost them in the field. You could come up with several other plausible stories.

Hi John,

I have little doubt that the coin is a CCC type. The examples you posted were far clearer than mine in making that case. This is simply not the work of any modern forger that I am aware of. That is my opinion and you can pass it along.

This particular coin has never raised enough question for me to have an XRF test made. If you want another way to get a second opinion an XRF test result might do that. Very few of the more modern Numismatic Forgeries pass any XRF test.

Just remember that all the tests in the world can never prove exactly when a false coin was made. But with each test the results bring us closer to assurance.