Britain 1817 Shilling (12 Pence) Gold Pattern?

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Author	Replies: 7 / Views: 920
Paul St Louis Valued Member United States 127 Posts	Posted 08/10/2023 3:39 pm This coin is one that has puzzled me for a long time. Deep scratches indicate the same colored metal throughout, which makes me think this is not similar to the gold plated 1883 "No Cents" Liberty nickel con. So I need to ask the experts to chime in with their "2 cents". 24mm width, 4.9 grams weight (as opposed to the silver shilling's 5.66 gram). Weight variance could be attributed to heavy wear to a 'G' state. I can find no Krause or NGC references to a gold shilling of this date, but I did find that Christie's shows an 1816 milled edge coin touted as a 'pattern' shilling with the same abbreviated Obverse Geor. lettering and reverse phrase "Honi soit qui mal y pense", a.k.a. "shamed be whoever thinks ill of it". However, that coin weighs in at 7.97 grams. Apparently the "Honi soit qui mal y pense" phrase origin was a trivial mishap at a court function. King Edward III was dancing with Joan of Kent, his first cousin and daughter-in-law, at a ball held in Calais to celebrate the fall of the city after the Battle of Crecy. Her garter slipped down to her ankle, causing those around her to laugh at her humiliation. Edward placed the garter around his own leg, saying this very phrase and founded the 'Order of the Garter' around the time of his claim to the French throne. So, all that aside, could this possibly be quite a find or a very nice trinket/exonumia to snicker about? Pictures as follows: Obverse with mm size Obverse up close Reverse with mm size Reverse up close Please be nice about my pathetic attempts at photos. I realize all hopes are lost for my ever receiving a photographic excellence award. Sigh. Report this Post to the Staff

Spence Moderator United States 34409 Posts	Posted 08/10/2023 4:08 pm I think that your pics are just fine @paul; however, I have moved the thread over the UK subforum so that folks there can weigh in on whether you have a contemporary counterfeit, spiel munze, undiscovered pattern, or something else. "If you climb a good tree, you get a push." -----Ghanaian proverb "The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed." -----King Adz Report this Post to the Staff
Paul St Louis Valued Member United States 127 Posts	Posted 08/10/2023 4:44 pm Whoops! Sorry about that. Thank you. Report this Post to the Staff
NumisRob Bedrock of the Community United Kingdom 17932 Posts	Posted 08/10/2023 5:21 pm Looks like a contemporary counterfeit to me, originally silvered. I've seen quite a few of them in dealers' junk trays in the UK. Here's a genuine one. There are quite a few differences, especially in the figures of the date: My Trade List: https://goccf.com/t/194596 My Wants List: https://goccf.com/t/191710 Report this Post to the Staff
Hogarth Pillar of the Community United Kingdom 735 Posts	Posted 08/10/2023 5:41 pm Rob is quite correct, a contemporary brass counterfeit, the original silver wash having worn away. Large numbers of fake sixpences, shillings, and halfcrowns dated 1816-1820 circulated widely at the time and are still readily available today. Edited by Hogarth 08/10/2023 5:44 pm Report this Post to the Staff
Sap Moderator Australia 16827 Posts	Posted 08/10/2023 6:55 pm I'd concur; a brass counterfeit shilling. Not gold. There are subtle differences in design that prove this is an "inferior" copy. For example: look closely at the horizontal lines behind the harp. Notice that they aren't quite parallel with the quartering lines of the shield (i.e. the line between the "harp" quarter and the "leopards" quarter). And furthermore, the lines to the left of the harp do not "match up" with lines inside of the harp or to the right of the harp - these lines were carved as separate details, rather than at the same time. Not unlike the way the "sunrays" often don't line up on either side of the boat, on fake Chinese "junk" dollars. Certainly good enough to fool the eye, especially when it had the silver wash. Or probably mercury wash, since there doesn't seem to be any trace of it left now. A mercury wash would have evaporated away after 200 years. Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis Report this Post to the Staff
Paul St Louis Valued Member United States 127 Posts	Posted 08/10/2023 7:10 pm Much as I suspected. Thanks to all for your insightful clues. This coin will go in my junk pile with other fakes knowingly purchased as copies since there are certain coins I will never really be able to own. Brings new meaning to the phrase "shamed be whoever thinks ill of it". Report this Post to the Staff
publius Pillar of the Community United States 807 Posts	Posted 08/10/2023 9:58 pm Interestingly, I do have a genuine shilling of this issue which shows distinct signs of having been gilded. With neither silver nor gold regal coinage having been in general circulation for years when these coins were issued, their place taken by tokens and banknotes, it's not surprising that there was plentiful opportunity for fraud based on unfamiliarity. Report this Post to the Staff
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