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Copper Münster Thaler, Replica ?

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Pillar of the Community

Portugal
655 Posts
 Posted 12/14/2023  6:12 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add jecz79 to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
I have been thinking about the origin of a copper version of a Bernhard Galen thaler. The piece is not mine but I can provide images as they are published.

It makes no sense as a cast fake for collectors because everyone knows this type is silver.

It may be an era piece to commemorate the crushing of the rebellion. But why do it as an exact copy of a silver coin?

It may be a modern museum piece or souvenir. But it is not marked as copy. And it appears worn. Museums like to reproduce good looking coins. And they do mark replicas. Or not?

Does anyone knows of old copper versions of these thalers? Or of modern replicas made in a different metal to show they are copies?

I am convinced it is a cast copy and have found the genuine coin struck from that die.
https://wag-muenzshop.de/archiv/a51/m2428.html
It has a die break also reproduced in the copy. The question is, why this odd thing was made?

Copper-Münster-Thaler,-Replica-?
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sel_69l's Avatar
Australia
21788 Posts
 Posted 12/15/2023  12:28 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add sel_69l to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I think the greatest possibility is that it is a copper replica, or perhaps a trial in copper for a high quality silver fake,
but
careful hand held examination of the edge and surfaces with a high powered loupe needs to be done.

At this stage, there remains the possibility that it could? be a genuine trilal piece for the silver coin illustrated in the link.

Perhaps it may help if exact measurements between major design elements, with a vernier caliper are taken and noted, and compared with a museum example.
High quality high pressure centrifugal die cast copies can be done, but minor variations in casting shrinkages can be detected.
Problem with this approach is to find a museum example, and have the staff co operate with you.

Super imposed photograph comparison may help to detect any minor variation in design features.
Pillar of the Community
Portugal
655 Posts
 Posted 12/17/2023  2:26 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jecz79 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I had not thought of trial pieces. Can be one.
Still think it is likely a replica. But it would have to be from a more worn anverse die than the one I found and linked to?
That bump in the reverse, about 8 hours near the rim, would that be indication of a cast copy?
The other possibility for replicas, with a copper item, would be a electrotype replica? I do not have enough experience to identify the characteristics of those from the surface look.

I am having to ask for help from museus with a different unusual piece, a renaissance medal. It is not easy. In my country I found that all the staff who knew anything about the pieces in the national numismatics museum was let go, retired without replacement.They lost the institutional knowledge. The new staff, clearly unsure of itself, has helpdesk drones blocking contacts. Culture in Europe was broken with the austerity thing done here. But perhaps I will have better luck with german museums for this item. Or italian for the medal. Thank you for the idea.
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tdziemia's Avatar
United States
7940 Posts
 Posted 12/17/2023  9:37 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Why not a struck counterfeit before receiving its silver coating?
I am not an expert on counterfeits from this era (or any other), but I have this struck copper or bronze counterfeit that woulld have been silvered:
Copper-Münster-Thaler,-Replica-?

Unlike yours, it is not a perfect replica of a real coin; it combines features of a Brabant type and a Flanders type.
But, could be a model for the purpose of yours.
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Portugal
655 Posts
 Posted 12/18/2023  6:27 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jecz79 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I did not knew there were contemporary counterfeits with silver coatings. Thank you, another possible explanation!
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tdziemia's Avatar
United States
7940 Posts
 Posted 12/19/2023  06:56 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It was very common for 18th century Spainsh coins. I used to have a couple of 2 reales coins dated arund 1720 where you could see the silver plating had rubbed away in some places.
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