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2023 P Lincoln Cent With Nice Feeder Finger Die Scrapes . Or?

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John1's Avatar
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 Posted 08/29/2024  04:17 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add John1 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I think Pete is a member here on CCF.
They do not look like any trail die I have seen.
I would have said FFD,but now that you, -makecents- say you read that FFD does not happen anymore makes me wonder
The "scrapes" do look thin and close together so now I am thinking polish lines of some kind for some reason.
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 Posted 08/29/2024  05:53 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Zinkin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
So, was this done to the planchet before the die was used to press it out ? Because if it was done after the coin was pressed then it would be on top of the shield line instead of just in between the shield lines?
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 Posted 08/29/2024  06:49 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add John1 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
So, was this done to the planchet before the die was used to press it out ?

No,it was done to the die.
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Brandmeister's Avatar
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 Posted 08/29/2024  11:44 am  Show Profile   Check Brandmeister's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Brandmeister to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Because if it was done after the coin was pressed then it would be on top of the shield line instead of just in between the shield lines?

Your reasoning was in the right direction. Post-Mint damage to the coin usually happens to the highest elements on the coin first. Damage to the die usually appears on the lowest coin elements first (because the lowest coin elements are the highest features on the die surface). This is why die surface events like feeder finger scrapes and die clashes appear to be behind the highest elements on the struck coin.
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 Posted 08/29/2024  1:35 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add RobO411 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I'm sure we've all run across this issue.

I have a few saved myself. None so extreme as Petes.
The ones I have all run in the same direction in the same area.
I've wondered after being told they're FF.
How on some it looks like they're running away from the shield on both west and east sides always running NE SW? Same angle?
Why in that/those area's?



Also on Pete's coin.
What's going on below ERICA?
To me they look like it's different from the other?

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 Posted 08/30/2024  07:28 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Petespockets55 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
...Looks like maybe the phenomenon also occurs on the bottom part of the shield as well?

Not seeing any below the banner. There are some roller lines and lite scratches.


Quote:
... don't mean to take away from feeder fingers not being used anymore...

The thread by Pete Apple stated "... and Dial Feeder (1836 to 1864 and 1895 to present) ...", so it seems they are still in use. I would tend to go with Pete Apple's research and comments.
(I thought I read somewhere they weren't used anymore. Maybe a statement Silviosi?)



Quote:
... yours are thin, the link is thick, but they are going in the same direction and in the typical direction and areas they have been the whole time the shields have been in use....

(Hopefully I don't send the discussion off course with my observations.)
I agree with your assessment overall.

On modern cents, I was remembering FF die scrapes going NW-SE, being wide-ish, and smooth like the ones in the cuds-on-coins link.

Here's a thread by Coop with great images, showing the Feeder Finger Damage going in both directions on Memorial cents and the same direction as mine on Shield cents.

http://goccf.com/t/336856

I'm thinking out loud here, but it seems to me that the angle of the "lines" is too consistent to be anything other than Feeder fingers.
Polishing by hand (either holding the die to the tool or the tool to the die) might produce "scrapes" on the die surface, but the direction of the scrapes would be more random.
It seems feeder fingers would be more consistent and follow the same mechanical motion over and over and in the same direction.
It also seems feeder fingers could create the damage at any Die State, whereas polishing would only affect older die state dies that were being serviced and maintained.

Good discussion and thanks to all for the input and comments. They keep the brain engaged and thinking.
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 Posted 08/30/2024  07:43 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Dearborn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I completely agree with you Pete, these 'have' to be FFD. No matter what equipment the mint is using, there has to be some sort of mechanism either placing or removing the planchets/coins from the chamber. There was one person that said that it was just gravity fed, but that would introduce other issues in the placement of planchets other that 'hoping' that it falls into the collar completely and perfectly every time and taking a chance on a proper strike.
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 Posted 08/30/2024  07:56 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Petespockets55 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
So the Cuds site text discusses that trail dies are from a rotary polishing tool

That's my understanding about Trail dies as well, but....

I'm not in agreement about these lines (or other similar lines) being from polishing. The angle of the lines seems to be too consistent. The width of the lines could be explained by the "sharpness" of the edge of the feeder finger metal as it scrapes across the die face or metal debris from the die that may build up along the leading edge of the feeder finger.


Quote:
...so that only the brush edge would touch the die face.

I don't think the die polishing equipment uses brushes, does it?


Quote:
... say you read that FFD does not happen anymore makes me wonder...
I believe he was relying on my statement about them not being used anymore, but I found comments by Pete Apple saying they are used, "... 1895 to present".
BTW- I agree they don't look like any trail dies as I've come to understand them.

John1, thanks for this reply "No, it was done to the die."


Quote:
How on some it looks like they're running away from the shield on both west and east sides always running NE SW? Same angle?
Why in that/those area's?

That's the consistency I'm referring to as to why I'm leaning towards Feeder Finger scrapes causing these lines and not polishing (it's been shown that polishing does cause Trail dies)


Quote:
Also on Pete's coin.
What's going on below ERICA?
To me they look like it's different from the other?

Thanks for pointing that out. I was hoping my images were good enough for others to see the area at the base of ERICA.
(I've got to scoot but will come back later this weekend on this.)

Thanks again every one.
Words of encouragement are one of the major food groups.
We need to consume them regularly to thrive and grow.
Edited by Petespockets55
08/30/2024 08:00 am
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 Posted 08/30/2024  09:32 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Seeker_101 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
As a former machinist, I can say there are many ways to polish metal. Brushes tend to be used more for deburring rather than polishing. For a rotary tool like a Dremel, polishing can be done with sanding drums/discs, diamond dusted bits, stone bits, or felt pads/cloth wheels with rouge or polishing paste The thing with hand polishing with a rotary tool is I believe would be done parallel to the device to minimize risk of slipping and hitting the device. Anything other than parallel raises the risk of hitting the device and rounding the edge of the device in that area. So I don't agree with the marks on the coin being polishing marks. I just don't see the direction and consistency being practical with hand polishing on the coin.

By the way, I used to polish high purity valve bodies. Finish on the bore and seal face had to be less than 10 Ra (< .000010 meters). The company would then put a polishing paste through the bore at high pressure to reduce the finish to 2 Ra (.000002 meters).
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Brandmeister's Avatar
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 Posted 08/30/2024  10:37 am  Show Profile   Check Brandmeister's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Brandmeister to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
https://www.usmint.gov/learn/produc...s/die-making

That Mint page shows a proof die getting polished parallel to the die surface with a rotary tool.
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 Posted 08/30/2024  12:24 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Seeker_101 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
In that video, I would consider the hand polishing "face on". What I meant by parallel is using the side of the felt pad and polishing along the edge of the device. In this way, the pad does not go over the device and therefore couldn't mark it.
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 Posted 09/03/2024  1:44 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add mikediamond to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Planchets and newly-ejected coins are still cradled by a pair of feeder fingers. Eight or so rectangular or T-shaped feeder/ejectors are arranged in a circle to form a dial feeder. You may be confusing reciprocating feeders with rotating feeders. Both employ "fingers" to move the planchets into and out of position. The OP's coin does appear to show feeder scrapes. But I can't entirely rule out unidirectional accidental die scrapes from another source.
Error coin writer and researcher.
Edited by mikediamond
09/03/2024 1:45 pm
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Petespockets55's Avatar
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 Posted 11/15/2024  03:21 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Petespockets55 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks Mike.
I'm not sure how I missed Mikes reply and clarification on feeder fingers still being used.

I'm revisiting this one because I came across another pair of this variety in a roll. They are easy to spot because of spanning the entire shield.

Thanks again everyone for your input.

Words of encouragement are one of the major food groups.
We need to consume them regularly to thrive and grow.
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