Coin Community Family of Web Sites Join Thousands of Coin, Bullion, & Money Collectors
Specializing in Modern Numismatics Vancouvers #1 Coin and Paper Money Dealer Coin, Banknote and Medal Collectors's Online Mall Join Thousands of Coin, Bullion, & Money Collectors Shop for APMEX Bullion on eBay!300,000 items to help build your collection! Royal Canadian Mint products, Canadian, Polish, American, and world coins and banknotes.








Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?


This page may contain links that result in small commissions to keep this free site up and running.

Welcome Guest! Registering and/or logging in will remove the anchor (bottom) ads. It's Free!

1809 CBH With "Centsalf" On Edge

To participate in the forum you must log in or register.
Author Previous TopicReplies: 14 / Views: 1,934Next Topic  
Valued Member
Buffalo soldat's Avatar
New Zealand
192 Posts
 Posted 05/03/2025  06:32 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add Buffalo soldat to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
I'm not sure what the Overton number is, or if the fact the edge has "FIFTY CENTSALF A DOLLAR" (rather than "FIFTY CENTS OR HALF A DOLLAR") on it makes that number immediately identifiable. While I do find some references here and there on various sites talking about this oddity in a search, no one seems to address the actual rarity, whether for 1809 or just more generally.

Did it only happen in 1809?
Is it particularly rare?
Is it unique to a particular Overton number?

I'm kind of new to early 19th century US coins, so still finding my way with them.
Do not read this sentence.
Pillar of the Community
United States
878 Posts
 Posted 05/03/2025  08:14 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add adam126402 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Do you have pictures you could share? I've never heard of that happening.

Welcome to the CCF!
Valued Member
Buffalo soldat's Avatar
New Zealand
192 Posts
 Posted 05/03/2025  10:03 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Buffalo soldat to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks for the welcome!

I've found it referenced here: https://media.stacksbowers.com/Virt...talog_LR.pdf

I'll see about uploading a photo, but it is as described.
Do not read this sentence.
Valued Member
Buffalo soldat's Avatar
New Zealand
192 Posts
 Posted 05/03/2025  10:23 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Buffalo soldat to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Let's see if this worked. I had to play around with the images to make them small enough. This should be edge, obverse and reverse.

1809-CBH-With-
1809-CBH-With-
1809-CBH-With-
Do not read this sentence.
Pillar of the Community
MisterT's Avatar
United States
2003 Posts
 Posted 05/03/2025  12:30 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add MisterT to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

It would be helpful if you rotated your pictures upright for easy viewing. Can't say for certain but that coin has the look of "Fresh off the Chinese press". Can you give us a weight, diameter and thickness?
Edited by MisterT
05/03/2025 12:32 pm
Valued Member
Buffalo soldat's Avatar
New Zealand
192 Posts
 Posted 05/03/2025  12:47 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Buffalo soldat to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Well, in an infinite universe anything is possible, but I'm going with this should be real for a couple of reasons. It seems to have this error, and it seems unlikely someone would copy such a nuanced error, and it also came from a numismatic auction house, so there's at least recourse if it is fake.

Further thoughts are welcome in any case. Photos have been rotated as requested.

Specs:
13.3 grams (scale only measures to tenths place. I'll see about getting it onto a more precise one.)
Diameter = 32.70 mm
Thickness = 1.5 mm

1809-CBH-With-
1809-CBH-With-
1809-CBH-With-
Do not read this sentence.
Edited by Buffalo soldat
05/04/2025 03:50 am
Pillar of the Community
MisterT's Avatar
United States
2003 Posts
 Posted 05/03/2025  1:11 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add MisterT to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The new pictures are much better. I am inclined to agree with you on authenticity. There are several edge varieties with this edge lettering misalignment being one of them. If genuine this is a high grade high dollar coin worthy of slabbing by a top TPG (PCGS or NGC). Here is a link to the PCGS site for comparison.
https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/1809-50c/6092
Pillar of the Community
Learn More...
Zurie's Avatar
United States
5671 Posts
 Posted 05/04/2025  06:23 am  Show Profile   Check Zurie's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Zurie to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Looks like a very early die state of O-106, nice example. I'm not sure how common the edge lettering error is. Apparently, many different lettering errors have been identified—here's an image from elsewhere that includes a list of them. Yours appears to be E40.

1809-CBH-With-
Valued Member
Buffalo soldat's Avatar
New Zealand
192 Posts
 Posted 05/05/2025  03:30 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Buffalo soldat to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I found this list of varieties sorted by date and type with photos:

https://www.ngccoin.in/variety-plus...s-1807-1836/

I have another question: What are the implications of the edge markings (|||| or xxxx) in relation to edge lettering? Were the markings in specific places relative to the letters? Or did they vary depending on where the coin ended up in the production process?

Looking at varieties on the NGC site, it seems the edge markings are usually located pretty close to the start of "FIFTY". I feel like the term "markings" is . subjective. In many of the photos I've seen, what pass for markings I would normally have considered cheery-eyed optimism. Are there any markings on this edge? Or am I being cheery-eyed and optimistic?



1809-CBH-With-
Do not read this sentence.
Edited by Buffalo soldat
05/05/2025 03:56 am
Moderator
Learn More...
jbuck's Avatar
United States
188372 Posts
Pillar of the Community
jacrispies's Avatar
United States
3848 Posts
 Posted 05/07/2025  2:12 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jacrispies to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Hooray, a bust half! I love these things. I had an O-106 prime just like yours not too long ago, but your coin has a razor sharp strike and is fairly high grade. I can answer your questions.
Did it only happen in 1809?
Edge lettering errors like yours can be found on all dates in the series, 1807-1836. It was caused by the Castaing edge lettering machine before it was struck. An independent system from striking that had it's own problems and trial runs as the First Mint employees were figuring things out as they went. Regardless, minor edge lettering errors are still found and the system was never foolproof.
Is it particularly rare?
Overlapping edge lettering is not rare. I would place the magnitude of overlapping on your example as uncommon. You can find examples like this in the wild and pay no premium. When significant portions of the edge lettering is obliterated, that is when the collectability increases.
Is it unique to a particular Overton number?
Patterns can arise (1814 a star was added on the edge, 1809 has XXX and IIII markings, etc) but there is no intentional correlation between die marriages and edge errors/mistakes.
What are the implications of the edge markings (|||| or xxxx) in relation to edge lettering? Were the markings in specific places relative to the letters? Or did they vary depending on where the coin ended up in the production process?
Problems arose during first handful of production years of the first U.S. Mint. One was slipping of the bar dies when the planchet was rolled through the machine. The planchet blank would be placed between the thin rectangular dies that contained the lettering, and the lettering would be rolled out onto the edge one coin at a time as the Mint employee worked the machine. On occasion, the bar dies would lose grip on the planchet and the edge lettering would overlap such as demonstrated on your coin. To prevent this, crude XXX and IIII designs were placed on the beginning of each bar dies in 1809 to help the planchet quickly grip the steel dies. For some reason, this only was tested in 1809 and it wasn't until 1814 that a new design element was introduced on the edge.
Are there any markings on this edge? Or am I being cheery-eyed and optimistic?
I have the records for the bar dies used for each die marriage. Out of 7 bar die marriages recorded for 1809, only marriages 3 and 4 represent the infamous XXX and IIII elements. But marriage 6 has what is described as "pseudo-engraved, light."
The 1809 O-106, your coin, is most commonly found with a plain edge. But, only in the earliest of die states, marriage 6 was used and something on the edge is noted. I do believe your coin shows the pseudo-engraved design. The planchet may have slipped off the edge when it was in the lettering machine, because you can see the design trail off to the side, making it more difficult to distinguish.

Here is my 1809 O-108a, showcasing bar die marriage 4 with the XXX design, which mistakenly overlaps the word DOLLAR:

1809-CBH-With-
Suffering from bust half fever.
Want to learn how to attribute early half dollars by die variety? Click Here: http://goccf.com/t/434955
Shoot me a PM if you are looking to sell bust halves.
Pillar of the Community
Learn More...
Zurie's Avatar
United States
5671 Posts
 Posted 05/07/2025  4:11 pm  Show Profile   Check Zurie's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Zurie to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Great information!
Moderator
Learn More...
jbuck's Avatar
United States
188372 Posts
Valued Member
Buffalo soldat's Avatar
New Zealand
192 Posts
 Posted 05/08/2025  8:17 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Buffalo soldat to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Wow, jacrispies, what a fantastically thorough answer! Thanks SO much for taking the time to elaborate and explain. Quite a lot of nuance in the production of these as others had mentioned, and I feel I have a much better understanding of some of it now with your detailed response. Initially, the more I looked, the more confusing it was, but it all makes much more sense now.

I don't love trying to offer grading through photos, but would you (or anyone) be willing to offer an assessment, even just a minimum grading, so to speak? I wouldn't hold anyone to it. I just have so little experience with this series. PCGS photograde has been helpful, but it's also just photos. Just wondered if anyone that has handled a few more of them than I have has a view.

I know the photos are not great. I'll try to post some better ones.

Thanks in advance.
Do not read this sentence.
Edited by Buffalo soldat
05/08/2025 9:40 pm
Pillar of the Community
jacrispies's Avatar
United States
3848 Posts
 Posted 05/09/2025  12:45 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jacrispies to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The coin is well struck (look at those stars!!), early die state, and has the most crisp detail you can get on that date. Unfortunately the coin is bright with hairlines, so it would earn the cleaned designation. AU Cleaned. A super cool coin nonetheless.
Suffering from bust half fever.
Want to learn how to attribute early half dollars by die variety? Click Here: http://goccf.com/t/434955
Shoot me a PM if you are looking to sell bust halves.
  Previous TopicReplies: 14 / Views: 1,934Next Topic  

To participate in the forum you must log in or register.



    




Disclaimer: While a tremendous amount of effort goes into ensuring the accuracy of the information contained in this site, Coin Community assumes no liability for errors. Copyright 2005 - 2026 Coin Community Family- all rights reserved worldwide. Use of any images or content on this website without prior written permission of Coin Community or the original lender is strictly prohibited.
Contact Us  |  Advertise Here  |  Privacy Policy / Terms of Use

Coin Community Forum © 2005 - 2026 Coin Community Forums
It took 0.44 seconds to rattle this change. Forums