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 Replies: 19 / Views: 1,191 |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
11882 Posts |
IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS - IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS - IN OMNIBUS CARITAS THE MAN IN THE ARENA, Theodore Roosevelt at the Sorbonne Paris on April 23, 1910: " It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." My coin website: https://fairfaxcoins.comEdited by numismatic student
08/19/2025 8:19 pm
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Bedrock of the Community
 United States
11882 Posts |
IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS - IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS - IN OMNIBUS CARITAS THE MAN IN THE ARENA, Theodore Roosevelt at the Sorbonne Paris on April 23, 1910: " It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." My coin website: https://fairfaxcoins.comEdited by numismatic student
08/19/2025 7:27 pm
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Pillar of the Community
Portugal
655 Posts |
Very interesting detail about the mouth. Only one pair of dies, do the dies still exist in historical storage?
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Pillar of the Community
United States
878 Posts |
IMO, yours has better hair detail, very strong clear date, better more complete denticles on both the obverse and reverse, less wear or better strike on the Eagle, legend is a little easier to read given the more uniform patina. "Liberty" is a little weaker on the obverse. If the Stacks coin is 45, them yours is a 45+
Just my thoughts from the cheap seats.
Edited by adam126402
08/19/2025 11:46 pm
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Moderator
 United States
15425 Posts |
Both are fabulous coins and well worthy of any collection.
I say your coin has more detail in the denticles both sides, a stronger date and a better struck legend on the reverse.
Interesting observation about the mouth on the Wiseman coin. If it has been tooled to that state (how else can it get there?) then technically the coin should be in a details holder.
Take a look at my other hobby ... http://www.jk-dk.art |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3323 Posts |
I wonder if the changes noted around the mouth are the result of polishing the die in a later stage? Did they do that type of repair in 1794?
"Nummi rari mira sunt, si sumptus ferre potes." - Christophorus filius Scotiae
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
11882 Posts |
Thank you for your kind comments.
@jecz79 my understanding is that dies we're defaced after their use after being decommissioned but not sure if the die pair survives.
@adam126402 I think the Stack coin is graded PCGS XF45 CAC.
@Bump111 polishing of the dies would make the surface of the die lower and the surface of the coin higher. Not sure how die polishing could create the opening at the mouth we see in this coin. For the opening of the mouth to be created by the die, I think you would have to add metal to the die.
IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS - IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS - IN OMNIBUS CARITAS THE MAN IN THE ARENA, Theodore Roosevelt at the Sorbonne Paris on April 23, 1910: " It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." My coin website: https://fairfaxcoins.comEdited by numismatic student
08/20/2025 09:40 am
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3848 Posts |
The 1794s are comparable, but at this level, strike weakness is certainly a large factor if detail is your main desire. Some others go for crispness of grade and sacrifice for a little flatness on the portrait and the rim. Stack's is selling another 1794 example this year as well! Best of both worlds, strike and preservation!   Suffering from bust half fever. Want to learn how to attribute early half dollars by die variety? Click Here: http://goccf.com/t/434955Shoot me a PM if you are looking to sell bust halves. |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
36744 Posts |
NS, I think your coin is correctly graded, Stacks coin is over graded. I don't think yours would bump up to AU grade.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3323 Posts |
Quote:
...polishing of the dies would make the surface of the die lower and the surface of the coin higher. Not sure how die polishing could create the opening at the mouth we see in this coin. Portions of the devices closest to the field on the die could be subject to over-polishing, as seen on many examples in the Morgan dollar series. I'm not familiar with the various dies and die states of these early dollars, but if polishing was a practice at that time I think it could explain the open mouth. For reference, here is a photo of a Morgan dollar in a later die state where the nostril, lips and corner of the mouth were opened after polishing.  "Nummi rari mira sunt, si sumptus ferre potes." - Christophorus filius Scotiae
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
11882 Posts |
Still not understanding the mechanics you are describing. For the mouth to open wider, the metal in the die that causes the depression in the coin at the open mouth would need to become larger. Alternatively, the void that allows the impression of the lips would need to become smaller. Not sure how polishing could expand metal and decrease voids of space in the die. Seems like die polishing would have the opposite effect.
IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS - IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS - IN OMNIBUS CARITAS THE MAN IN THE ARENA, Theodore Roosevelt at the Sorbonne Paris on April 23, 1910: " It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." My coin website: https://fairfaxcoins.com |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
878 Posts |
I agree with IGE. NS, imagine that from the surface of the die to the deepest part of the devices is 1.5mm. The crease between the lips and trailing down is at a depth of .2mm to create the 3d effect. Polishing the die increases the fields and trims down the devices with the shallowest parts of the devices disappearing first and becoming part of the fields. You'll see this on what I call broken nose bridges on CBH or on single leaf varieties where the polishing increases the fields and trimmed or deleted the devices.
Seems like that is what is happening on the referenced coin, unless I'm missing something.
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
11882 Posts |
@adam & @bump, I think I understand.  Thanks for putting up with my slow thinking.  IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS - IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS - IN OMNIBUS CARITAS THE MAN IN THE ARENA, Theodore Roosevelt at the Sorbonne Paris on April 23, 1910: " It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." My coin website: https://fairfaxcoins.com |
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Bedrock of the Community
 United States
18663 Posts |
NS I like your example better than than the Stacks. based on the photos it appears the stacks coin is exhibiting more of the lustrous surfaces than yours, but reverse is hands down way better in the way of strike. the reverse imo is AU
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
11882 Posts |
Thanks for all of your kind comments and thank you to @jacrispies for sharing images of the incredible Boyd example of the first dollar. What an incredible state of preservation. What do the mavens at SB estimate this superb example to realize as it crosses the auction threshold? $6 million? As I throw out that number I am hearing the music from The Fall Guy as Lee Majors is jumping over a wide ravine. Younger folks here probably won't get that reference. IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS - IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS - IN OMNIBUS CARITAS THE MAN IN THE ARENA, Theodore Roosevelt at the Sorbonne Paris on April 23, 1910: " It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." My coin website: https://fairfaxcoins.com |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
11882 Posts |
I was mucking around online and ran into the sale price for the James Stack 1794 dollar which is the subject of this comparison thread. I was shocked by the hammer price that realized over $1 million dollars in December of 2025. The Troy Wiseman coin sold for $528,000 so this was a huge leap in the prior realized price for an XF45 coin. Also happy that many of you thought that my coin was better than the Stack coin.  Does this mean that my 1794 dollar is my first million dollar coin?   IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS - IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS - IN OMNIBUS CARITAS THE MAN IN THE ARENA, Theodore Roosevelt at the Sorbonne Paris on April 23, 1910: " It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." My coin website: https://fairfaxcoins.comEdited by numismatic student
Yesterday 2:00 pm
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Posted 08/19/2025 9:18 pm
