Swiss Coins

Hi Samithanna,
Sounds like some very nice coins. I have never heard of those coins being forged, but I know that a lot of forgeries are done in China of valuble coins. Most of the time the coins are easy to pick as a fake, the weight gives it away. Your being Silver and the right size and weight makes me believe you have the real thing. I'm not sure how you would go about getting these Swiss coins authenticated. I'd suggest finding a swiss coin club that specialises in these coins. I checked our members list and no one is listed as from Switzerland...Yet.

PS. If genuine, they are worth thousands and should NOT be cleaned.

Forgery of these two 5 Francs has happened but the coins produced are easy to spot because they have grainy surfaces in the fields - they are also usually lightweight 22 grams. They are a bit thicker than normal to make up for the fact that a copper nickel alloy is used.

However, that is not the only possibility. More altered date originals exist than counterfeits. There are two primary techniques used to make the alteration. In the cruder method the field around the final digit is cut down leaving the new number is a shallow depression. These alterations are usually covered with "black goop" which is a mix of carbon in a petroleum base. It is often baked onto the surface and it resembles natural deep toning.

The second common method is to glue or solder on a new number after the original number is tooled off. The best way to detect these is with a high power binocolar microscope. Look for a seam, a discontinuity in flow lines or fine abbraision lines. If the numeral is glued on you can often remove it my bathing the coin in pure acetone. It will not harm the coin but will dissolve many common glues used for this purpose.

Sorry to always look at the "darker" side of the subject. but this is my particular area of interest.

I decided to reply in cut and paste fashion in RED.

Thank you very much for your response concerning the 5FR Swiss silver coins. I read your response many times and I want to tell you that the thickness of my coins is 2mm ( I do not know what is the thickness of the genuine coin!),could you please tell me? If this is measured with a ruler - that is about as close to correct as you can get. But a fake to match weight in white metal will be nearly THREE mm thick. A 2 mm thick coin in White metal will weigh only 22 grams or so. Therefore since your coins are not 3 mm thick - you could possibly have a silver fake. But I have not seen one of those personally - I am not sure they even exist. Based on the principle of Ockham's Razor you eliminate the more complex solution a silver forgery with super dies and you focus on the SIMPLE solution. That leaves me focusing on the probability of an alteration as the likely solution.

Also, in order to soak the coins in pure acetone to see if the glue would melt or not, does the acetone which is used in finger nail polish remover is a pure acetone or not,and if it is ok, would it harm the coins? Also, if the numbers are soldered and not gluded would the acetone method disclose any forgeries? When looking for an alteration DON'T start with acetone. That is a last step. Start with a good binocular microscope. Perhaps you can find a jeweler or a coin dealer with a good scope. It is far easier to look for alterations than to remove a glued number.

Also, what is the way to check the authenticity of the coins if the numbers were baked on the surface and resembling natural deep toning, as you had said in your response? The Black Goop is used in conjunction with either alteration. The numbers are NOT BAKED ON. The goop is baked on to HIDE the alteration damage. Under a good quality microscope goop will look like paint - real tarnish is a layer only a few microns thick. Tarnish is a chemical reaction of the metal with polutants - it is VERY thin. The goop will cling to the features in a thick globby paint like mess. If you have "Black goop" that will definitely dissolve in acetone - which you can get at some bigger drugstores. I wouldn't want to guarantee that all nail polish removers are actually safe - they do contain other chemicals - and remember NO RUBBING AT ALL.

Another inquiery, is it possible to reduplicate a coin by other means with the same weight, size and thickness of the original ones? YES - if a forger were to get a real coin and make a good transfer impression - in say dental grade plastic - it would be possible to create a planchet from say 0.999 fine silver that would weigh the right amount and which could be struck up very well. However the EDGE would be the difficult part to fake. As I said above, I have NEVER seen one. But one could definitely COULD be produced. In that case, the clues would be in the fine details and in the transfer of damage from host coin. Remember a ding has its own set of micro-properties that can be seen under a microscope and that distinguish it from the surface of any transfer medium.

If there is no alteration and no black goop and if the dies look real then you need to go to the next step. Probably the easiest way is to get the coins encapsulated. But I would check everything else first to save myself the cost of finding out they are alterations.

After you invest in books - there are a few other things you should get. Calipers and a micrometer for dimensions. A good scale 4 beam with a free arm that weighs to 0.01 gram minimum (you can do Specific Gravities that way. A good binocular microscope with several powers up to 300X. Once you get your lab set up and you have read all the books - you can start authenticating your own. One thing I know - I trust myself more than any third party grader I know.

swamperbob:

Thank you very much for all the sent information. As a beginner I had got some knowledge from your responses, but frankly soeaking there are more things which I could not interpret and are beyound my capacities, such as the different ways to check the authenticity of a coin. I am not sure I could do it by myself, since it needs experts in this field.I am not.However, I shall keep the coins with me till I meet a coin dealer in my country, which I doubt it!! and I hope that some time I or my son will travel to the United states, and there he will contact experts in this field for confirmation of authenticity or not.In case they are not authentic, are they worth anything? Although they look to me very close to authenticity!

I have some ancient Creek coins of Tetradrachm with ATHENA on the obverse, and Owl with AOE on the reverse, but they are dark in colour at some parts, not very dark but to an extent that I need to look deeply on them. In other words they are not shining as those I see on some web sites maybe because they are very old!!!. Is there a way to make them shiny without damaging them? or leave them as they are!!
I hope very soon I shall be able to send an image of all of them in order to receive your comments.

Another question, I have a 1879 and 1882cc Trade U.S. dollars. In reviewing one of the books, I did not find such coins except in a PROOF state. Mines are not, and their colours are MATT. Can you comment on them regarding authenticity!!

Thank you for everything

samithanna

swamperbob:

I am very grateful for your precious information. A thorough description, using a magnification loop (regular one),of the five pieces of the Athena - Owl Tetradrachma, in my possession, I could see a dot in the middle of the "O" except one I was not sure. However, due to their old date "dirtiness" of the observe and reverse of the coins the dots were there but not very prominent!! If there is a dot in the middle of the "O" does this means they are authentic? What are other characteristics I should look for to rule out a counterfeit? If real, how much each is worth? not to mention that almost all the characteristics are present and very few shows very mild wear,[but they are dark in colour], but you can see every detail if mildly magnified.

Thanks in advance for your help and assistance

samithanna

SalamWalekoom!
I am also from the Middle eastern Area but am not arab.
Welcome!
I must say ancient forges are very common in the Region we live in and so are Trade dollars, I saw a FAKE Trade dollar going for 2KWD(6USD) at an AU-50 grade. The dealers hardly know what they are dealing with!

Your Tethradrachmas will most likely be FAKE( It still could be genuine!) Ive seen multiple types of that coin(in same area in Kuwait and all IDENTICAL!)

So...be sure theyre not identical