A Counterfeit Auction That Should Not Be Stopped

Here is another auction involving a counterfeit Eight Reale from Mexico. But this auction should not be stopped.


http://cgi.ebay.com/1842-MEXICAN-8-...ON_W0QQitemZ300002314720

I need to explain why.

First this coin was made BEFORE 1845. It shares one die with the Riddell # 237. That coin (#237) uses a Cap die dated 1834 but the eagle die is identical. This coin was made originally in the US (Northeastern Area) and circulated during the Hard Times era alongside both real and token currencies. These coins are typically 0.600 fine silver and according to Dr. Riddell's assay they were worth about 70 cents in 1845. Some later issues are German Silver.

The seller may not know this coin is a counterfeit because in Massachusetts - this variety is actually more common than originals. I know because I was raised there and collected counterfeits there for over 40 years. This particular variety of 8R is the most commonly encountered fake in New England.

Because it is listed in Riddell, this coin is an historical numismatic item known to have been in circulation in the US. It is also on a par with originals as far as value goes so no one will be harmed financially.

But under ebay's current policy prohibiting ALL counterfeits, the auction might be cancelled if the coin was more correctly identified for what it is by the seller. That is why I will warn the seller NOT to change his wording but to instead contact the final high bidder to make sure he wants a counterfeit. Most people even marginally familiar with the Cap and Ray series should know that this eagle NEVER appeared on a real 8R.

I spent about an hour on the phone last week with an actual ebay employee! They ( ebay employees) are rarer than hen's teeth, but I did actually speak with one and in the process I did find out why ebay takes little action against Chinese counterfeit coin auctions. It stems from two different law suits both of which ebay lost.

The first suit (by Nike as I recall) was brought to court because ebay allowed sellers to post properly described counterfeits. The sellers were selling bogus Nike products and they were identified as such. ebay lost the suit in US court so they have been forced to stop auctions when sellers state that they are selling counterfeits (exactly what is being faked is inconsequential under the ruling).

The second law suit was brought by someone selling fakes - fakes that were NOT identified as fakes - but ebay had only the word of experts to back them up not someone who could prove the items were fake beyond the shadow of a doubt. ebay also lost that lawsuit and now they can only stop auctions if 1) the copywrite holder complains or 2) if the seller admits an item is a fake. So for coins it leaves ebay with no copywrite holder and sellers in China unwilling to admit fraud.

I asked about a panel of experts familiar with counterfeit coins who could quickly diagnose forgeries from pictures (I even volunteered to be on the panel at no charge) but the fellow said that the suggestion had already been explored and it had been rejected by their legal advisers on two grounds. First, the panel would have to be ebay employess and second there was no way to satisfy the "beyond a doubt" issue without having the coins physically in your possession.

So at least I now understand why ebay has to allow Chinese forgers to operate so brazenly. The US courts side with the sellers baring absolute proof of the forgery - which is only possible AFTER the coin is physically delivered for examination which is too late to stop the auction.

He did however, give me an avenue via which to help. He said that ebay no longer took action against members who contact other bidders warning them that they "MIGHT" be bidding on a forgery and advising the bidder to check the coin out. Notice you still need to avoid direct statements that a coin "IS FAKE" (for legal liability reasons) but you can infer it MIGHT BE and then let the buyer do his homework. But ultimately, ebay will defend themselves with "Let the buyer beware" which their legal experts say is the only safe position to take.

I said all this just to indicate that education of bidders is the most critical element in stopping fraud at the source.