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Barber Vs Brenner

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razorear's Avatar
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613 Posts
 Posted 07/07/2010  11:33 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add razorear to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
Why did Charles E. Barber hate Victor D. Brenner? Maybe hate is a strong word, but it took Barber's death to get VDB back on the Lincoln Cent. Was he jealous of Brenner's success or a women?
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United States
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 Posted 07/07/2010  12:10 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add eddiespin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Was he jealous of Brenner's success or a women?

I don't think he was a woman.
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biokemist6's Avatar
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 Posted 07/07/2010  12:56 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add biokemist6 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Charles Barber considered himself to be something of US Mint royalty and he was quite egotistical, he also had a well-known feud with Augustus Saint-Gaudens be at least he had Teddy Roosevelt in his corner Charles Barber succeeded his father, William Barber, as Chief Engraver so a Barber was in charge from 1869-1917. One might think that they own the place after being around for half a century and that would lead to natural conflicts, especially with designers who might be more talented artistically.
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Namachieli's Avatar
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 Posted 07/07/2010  12:57 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Namachieli to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Jealous of Brenner's success, or jealous of a woman.

I think thats what he was going for.

Either way. I have no clue.
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razorear's Avatar
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613 Posts
 Posted 07/07/2010  2:07 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add razorear to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
So, it was jealousy then and a BIG HEAD. Thats what I meant Ian, I just wrote it wrong I guess. I was curious because I read that it took the death of another man to get the initials back on the wheatie. Royalty, lol.
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Conder101's Avatar
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 Posted 07/07/2010  5:49 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Conder101 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It wasn't just Barber. The Chief engravers have ALWAYS consider the designing of the coins to be THEIR jobs, and they have held onto their positions tenaciously. Reich was hired to be Scot's assistant in 1807 because they felt his health and eyesight was failing and that he would soon retire. Instead he stuck around until he died in 1824. And when Reich gave up and left in 1817, Scot redid almost all of the coins that Reich had done.
Gobrecht was hired as an assistant to Kneass because of his failing health. After Gobrecht was hired Kneass had a stroke but he still wouldn't leave and stayed until he died in 1840.

Seeing a trend? Quiz time, The Mint stated in 1792, who was the first chief engraver NOT to insist on sticking around until he died in office?

The Mint was practically a family run business from the start. The Eckfelt's and their family relations held posts and key posts in the mint form 1792 until the last one left in the 1930's. They had a lot of say over who worked at the Mint. This was one of the reasons Longacre was so disliked. Rather than proving himself to the "Family" as being qualified for the position of Chief Engraver, he used political pull to get the position. (He wasn't qualified and the Mint insiders tried for years to get him removed.)

The Barbers, both father and son, also felt the position of engraver was theirs and they had a great dislike for Morgan when he was brought in. There was a lot of infighting there and other than the Morgan dollar he was pretty much relegated to medal design until the barbers were gone. But at least Morgan worked for the Mint.

The Coinage Act of 1890 opened the door for new designs for the US coins and the Treasury had a great idea, have a competition for the new designs! Barber wanted none of that! HE was the person who should be designing the coins! Well fortunately the invited artists behaved like spoiled children so it looked like the competition was off. Nooooo, instead they opened it up to everyone! How to stop it now? No problem there will be three judges, one who doen't care, a major sculptor who felt that HE was the only person qualified to design the coins, AND CHIEF ENGRAVER Charles Barber! With that panel, this competition was dead before it ever started. Only one entry even got an honorable mention. SO the Treasury through up their hands and told Barber that he should go ahead and design the coins himself, which was what he wanted all along.

So naturally he resented Brenner. He resented Saint-Gaudens as well (who was also the second judge in the 1890 competition) He resented Bigalow/Pratt, Fraser, MacNeil, and Weinman. (Obviously after the dime quarter and half he gave us they weren't going to let him do any more designing.) And when Morgan finally got his chance after waiting 41 years to get the position, he wound up resenting De Francisci.

It sounds like these folks were all pretty petty, especially Barber. But he did have valid complaints. With the exception of Frasier NONE of these outsiders had experience with or understanding of the problems with designing a coin that could be struck up well with a single blow of the high speed press. The designers turned in breahtaking totally unworkable designs and Barber had to try to make them work, and caught all the flack about how he was ruining their wonderful designs. Is there any wonder he resented them?

Suggested reading, Roger Burdette's wonderful trilogy Renaissance of American Coinage 1907-1908, 1909 - 1913, and 1916 - 1921. Discover all of the behind the scenes difficulties in the creation of some of the best loved US coin designs.
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razorear's Avatar
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613 Posts
 Posted 07/07/2010  7:16 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add razorear to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks Conder thats one heck of a read. I take it that this battle continues today.
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GR58's Avatar
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11951 Posts
 Posted 07/07/2010  10:51 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add GR58 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Conder101

Thank you very much for such a interesting write up. I will be looking to pick up that set of books.
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Conder101's Avatar
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17884 Posts
 Posted 07/08/2010  10:35 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Conder101 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I take it that this battle continues today.

Actually no, because we no longer have a Chief Engraver. We haven't had one since Elizabeth Jones left office in August of 1990. About two years after that the office of Chief Engraver was legislated out of existance.
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925dealer's Avatar
United States
258 Posts
 Posted 08/14/2010  6:40 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add 925dealer to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Actually no, because we no longer have a Chief Engraver. We haven't had one since Elizabeth Jones left office in August of 1990. About two years after that the office of Chief Engraver was legislated out of existance.


No wonder we finally are getting nicer coins....

Barber had no sense of style. Notice the Barber dimes, quarters and halves all have the same design. I like it when different coins have different designs.

With regards to the VDB initials they were originally agreed to by the powers that be. Then they got a complex and decided it was not acceptable (when it was normal for a designers initials to be on the coin) and for a few years the VDB was removed. That is ok. His design is STILL with us 100 years later. It was Brenner who had the last laugh after all..... Sincerely, John Leckrone
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