Mexican 8 Reales 1840 Go

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Bienvenidos!

Thank you everyone for your responses.

Hello swamperbob I was hoping you would respond, thanks for the info.

Now that I remember I actually read your reviews on ebay and I asked you a few questions regarding some cap & rays I was interested in a few years ago.

It's great to know that you frequent this site. I paid $45.00 for this piece I hope I didnt over pay too much.

Thanks Again!

Great! I look forward to obtaining more 8R's in the future.

Thanks again for the info!

The non-radial erosion of that die is VERY STRANGE to say the least. It could be caused by a loose die that "slid" somehow I suppose, but I will have to check my photos to see if I have a comparable one. I can not come up with a plausible mechanism for how this could happen.

The counterfeit die erosion I was referring to is swept - curved at the ends of the lines like an arc. I first encountered the problem on a near MS counterfeit that had been rejected by ANACS. They are modern forgeries. Some that I have tested come up with an incorrect SG but the first one was correct.

I am still unable to locate the photos of that coin.

The coin looks real - however, in 1833 one of the die hubs was stolen or borrowed by counterfeiters (perhaps aided by a dishonest mint employee). They produced a series of forgeries dated 1833, 1834, 1835, 1836, 1837, 1838 and 1839. All of which can usually be identified by Specific Gravity and sometimes the last digit of the date and the assayer initials which the forgers added themselves. The existance of this type is confirmed by Riddell - he discovered an 1836 with a small tilted 6 that was very low in silver content 0.466 fine - he calls them "Debased" because he was unsure if they were made in the mint or not. He does speculate about the possible use of hubs and dies by forgers but reaches no conclusion.

I theorize that it was an outside group of forgers because the Star on Cap 1835 Go variety would then have a GOOD REASON for existing. If there was a known forgery using dies made from real hubs then the mint officials could have made the star variety to distinguish real mint product from fakes. Dunigan and Parker have no idea why the star variety exists - this theory of mine would account for it.

I also argue that if mint employees did steal the hub why did they often (but not always) use the same edge dies on different date coins(a missmated set of edge dies) and why did they often get the incorrect font, size and position for the last digit of the date. Some of the last digits look engraved not punched. My theory is that once the hubs got out of the mint many fake dies were made. This could have been done immediately and would account for rust seen on many later dated varieties. If the hub was recovered in 1835 the mint officials may have seen no reason to continue using the star. But the forged dies were NOT all recovered. Some of these dies were then used over time by one group of forgers to make a series of dates all of which use the same edge dies BUT other incomplete dies may have been sold to other forgers who made copies using different edge dies. I came up with this theory in 1999 and I have been adjusting it over time for what I have been discovering.

I have seen several 1833 varieties but none matching yours. The 1833 forgeries come with a straight J and a full J. There is a small titled 3 (size of a 4R number) variety and a second where the 3 is doubled. There is a small straight 3 and a large 3 (wrong font). The weights of examples I own range from 26.8 grams to 27.5 grams. About half are overweight. But all are debased. To be sure you don't have a new variety of 1833, you need to check the Specific Gravity. It is the only way to tell for sure.

By the way NONE of the coins I own in this category were identified as forgeries when I purchased them. I bought them from dealers who insisted they were real. But over the years I have gotten fairly good at picking the debased copies out of inventories. They are NOT that common.

Regarding the staining on the coin. It could be an ink chop. But normal ink dissolves in acetone. I wonder if the discoloration was caused by an acid that etched the surface. There are similar discolorations seen on forgeries which used odd alloys especially the German Silver types made under crude conditions. But if the SG is correct you have no problem. The 1833 coins were not targeted as bullion forgeries in the 1890s - so as far as I know all high grade silver forgeries would have to be modern and I have not seen one yet.

Thank you very much for the info swamperbob, yep the other side has the same engrail design and I will check for the pop out next time I get a chance, right now I'm heading on a trip.

Thanks again!