1771 Peru 8 Reales Pillar

jfransch Those two look a lot more reasonable to me.

nicolashsing The kinds of clues I look for are accumulative. Alone any one can be legitimate, it is the combination of factors. But all a photo review can result in is an opinion.

1. The fact the coin is clean means it will not likely be graded.

2. I know that there are some people operating screw presses large enough to make an 8R - so while it may be uncommon IT IS NOT IMPOSSIBLE for a modern counterfeit to be as well struck as any original.

You say:


That is true - double struck coins are very common. It was a manual screw press and the coin was removed by hand.

But your 1770 is NOT DOUBLE STRUCK. The die is double hubbed (double punched). Since it is a die feature caused by an error in the manufacture of the die itself - all copies made from this die pair will all have the SAME DOUBLING of the image.

Counterfeit 8R coins of all times are often double hubbed. I have perhaps 150 examples of double and triple hubbing caused by the way forgers make their dies.

swamperbob
I appreciate your professional knowlege in pillar mint.To discuss with you about pillar coin issues I made a lot of progress in this field.
One more thing I wanna discuss with you is about cleaning.I heard that NGC can bear cleaned coin as long as the cleaning didn't hurt the surface of the coin.
Here I have a example for you. I got this coin uncertificated from a Mexico seller on ebay,I taken photos when it arrives.From the photo you can see it was no doubt slightly cleaned at some spots near legend on obverse,especially on 12 o'clock.But reverse has original luster.
SEE picture 1-3
And then I send it to NGC,NGC had graded it as AU55 although it was cleaned.
SEE picture 4-6
So it proofs that NGC does grade coin with slight cleaning,so does PCGS,cause I saw a lot of Chinese silver dollars (in the early 20th century )was cleaned and cerfiticated by PCGS even reach MS63 or higher.







4-6

Indeed a very enlightening postings...


This could be one of the reason why I tend to see fake coins graded by TPG companies, or not all of these companies have experts in the field of Columnarios...
We are now luckier that we are able to discuss and get familiarize with the counterfeits.
Swamperbob : your book about counterfeits is really needed to be spreaded out in our world of numismatics

Xiang Hello and welcome.

You as a simple question that has NO SIMPLE answer. However, I can provide a few tips that may help.

Before anything else get a few tools. First a good (inexpensive) digital scale is a must. Get a 10X loupe with a WIDE field. Get a small magnet. The follow the clues below.

1. Counterfeit examples of the 8R series have been around for many years so a coin bought 50 years ago is almost as likely to be a forgery as one bought yesterday. Age of the original collection is NOT A GUARANTEE OF AUTHENTICITY.

2. The 8R was a silver coin made to HIGH standards so deviations in weight and volume over a few percent ARE NOT ACCEPTABLE. The weight should be over 26 grams and under 27.5 for decent grades. Wear and corrosion DOES NOT REMOVE 4 or 5 grams from any collectible coin. AVOID LIGHTWEIGHT COINS EVEN IF WORN. Watch for mined originals.

3. Always check an 8R with a magnet. This will identify coins made of Iron and Nickel. But not all non-magnetic coins are real. Keep going.

4. Check the edge of the coin - look for the appropriate design and look for appropriate application technique. For this you need to know what the original edge looked like and how it was applied. Check my postings on edge application.

4A. No 8R coins have REEDED edges.
4B. No collectible 8Rs have plain edges.
4C. There are NO SEAMS on real 8Rs.
4D. There are TWO overlaps in the edge design 180 degrees apart.
4E. Edge overlaps are EQUAL in length.
4F. The edge dies were well made so VARIATION in segments is BAD.
4G. For the colonial edges (rectangle-circle) look for circles with SQUARE corners they are FAKE.

5. Real 8Rs were normally struck (there are a few - VERY FEW - war time exceptions). Know what cast coins look like. You have to be able to tell the difference.

5A. Castings often have porous surfaces. Some are air bubbles in the metal. BUT newer injection molds have few bubbles.
5B. Casting molds often have small holes in the surface resulting in LUMPS on the coin surfaces. Molds (plaster or plastic) also break faster than dies. Know how to spot real die cracks.
5C. Castings do not have mint luster.
5D. Castings can have NON-RADIAL erosion lines.

6. Know the feel, color and sound of silver.

6A. Electroplated copies will be darker because 100% pure silver is darker than silver alloyed with copper.
6B. Debased coins often look yellow because of too much copper.
6C. Coins made with zinc and some pewters have a greasy feel.
6D. Ring will detect some alloys (not really good for debased or nickel copies).
6E. Streaks in the metal alloy (changes of color) are often seen on counterfeit alloys.
6F. German silver is brittle and does not flow well - cracks in the flan are more common on counterfeits than originals.
6G. Changes in color in worn areas can identify Sheffield plate copies - white metal cores can resemble silver so the deviation can be subtle.

7. Common misconceptions

7A. Chop marks guarantee a coin is real. FALSE many chop marks were copied onto molds or dies - look for evidence of the chop occurring POST STRIKE.
7B. Post strike chops have been added to counterfeit coins as have counterstamps. LOOK at the DEEPEST part of the chop to see if the chop was made with ONE puncheon.
7C. Double strikes are far more common on counterfeits than originals.
7D. Overdates and double hub impressions are far more common on counterfeits.
7E. Counterfeiters often mule dies incorrectly - so if your 8R has a misspelling or the wrong King's name it is much more likely to be a forgery than an original.
7F. All counterfeits are of value - that is not true. But not all counterfeits are valueless either. Some forgeries are more valuable than the originals.
7G. Evidence of die clashes proves a coin is struck - NOT NECESSARILY. Evidence of a clash can be copied onto a forged die or mold. In the case of dies, forgers have been known to intentionally clash the fake dies to produce a higher value fake.

I could go on in far more detail, but that is a decent start.

If you have ant questions or need clarification - let me know.

BE CAREFUL - do not be OVER ANXIOUS to buy before you know. Remember there are rarely any super bargains (usually forgeries) and unless you are spending 10s of thousands of dollars - all of these coins will appear again.

There is NO RUSH.

No problem. I have been at this a long time.

I am easier to reach here or by email. I have a facebook account set up by my kids but do not use it.

Well good luck it is nice to see young people involved in coin collecting. I started when I was 8 years old and have been at it for 55 years now.

Don't let anyone tell you it is a waste of $$. When I was 16 I could buy a US $20 gold coin for under $50. Of course $50 at that age was nearly two weeks take home pay so I didn't buy many.

erm finally I gt to post it...it's kinda weird...especially the reverse