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Replies: 12 / Views: 3,533 |
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Valued Member
South Africa
169 Posts |
I have been looking at all the different words that are used to describe a'"Coin" that is not real. Fakes, copy, counterfeit, replica, forgery, false, imitation, pirate, phony. and hundreds more, uhmm you get the idea. Looking at that, does this depend on American English, UK English or international English, or what people would like to call this, or is there a more correct term. From what I could see the term counterfeit is for coins too, but is more commonly used for paper bills. What is more commonly used in Numismatic literature? What is used by the experts on this forum? Like to hear comments on this as to what would be the more correct term to use. 
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Moderator
 Australia
16808 Posts |
Personally, I don't see them all as synonyms. Each word can carry a slightly different meaning. Here's how I use the words; other people may well have different understandings.
"Copy", "fake" and "phony" are synonyms, generic terms indicating anything non-genuine, or where the intent of the people that made it is uncertain or unknown.
A "counterfeit" is a coin intended to fool. A "circulating counterfeit" is intended to pass as money and fool ordinary people who would receive it in change or in the till; a "numismatic counterfeit" is intended to fool we collectors.
"Forgery" I would use specifically for a "circulating counterfeit".
A "replica" or "reproduction" is a coin not intended to fool anybody - even though a novice might nevertheless be fooled anyway. Replicas are often sold to tourists (hence they are also known as "tourist copies" or "tourist fakes") who visit historic places and wish to buy a cheap souvenir. Sometimes the people that hawk these things to the tourists tell them they're repros, sometimes they don't. Extremely rare coins might also have replicas made for collectors, because very few people could afford a real one and some collectors would rather have a replica than nothing at all.
"Imitation" is a broader word, meaning a coin that is made to more or less resemble another coin. The imitation could even be a perfectly legal coin, made by another country in hope that the original coin's acceptability would rub off on the imitation as well.
An "evasion" is a class of imitation that also has aspects of the counterfeit; it is designed to look similar enough to a genuine coin to pass as one at first glance, but has distinct and obvious differences in design such as mis-spelled or incorrect words, such that a second glance will easily reveal its true nature (and hopefully get them found not guilty of counterfeiting if they get caught). Evasion British guineas and sovereigns and ZAR Kruger ponds, produced as card game tokens, are common.
A "fantasy" is a coin that looks like it might be genuine, but in fact "genuine coins" with that design never actually existed. There are Edward VIII "fantasy coins" struck in the name of every country that was in the British Empire in 1936, for example.
Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
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Valued Member
Mexico
53 Posts |
Wow SAP that was enlightening  How do you call the use of coins of similar characteristics size-weight-appearance but from different countries. Of course the intention is to fool someone, for example in the highway tolls or other automatic machines, even in common change.
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Moderator
 Australia
16808 Posts |
Well, the coins themselves aren't usually made specifically for that purpose - it's usually not the fault of one country that another country's coins have very similar properties to theirs. I've never heard of an example like that in modern times where a country deliberately attempted to flood one of their neighbours with their own cheap imitation coins - though there are plenty of examples of this in mediaeval times (such as debased Dutch silver pennies being issued with suspiciously English-like designs). It's the canny individuals that notice the similarity and decide to attempt passing a foreign coin off as a local one. If I had to give it a label, I would call it "substitution" or perhaps "opportunistic imitation".
Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
20753 Posts |
Yes Sap that was about the best way to explain those terms. However, I would place Copy in with Replica and Reproduction. The reason is in most instances I've seen a reproduced or replicated coin has the word Copy embedded on it somewhere.
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New Member
United States
31 Posts |
In ancients, contemporary counterfeit is the term used to mean a counterfeit meant to pass as money in ancient times. A limes coin is such a coin, "limes" meaning limit, or outer edge of the empire, where there was a huge unmet demand for coins. A fourree is an ancient silver plated counterfeit meant to pass as a solid silver coin.
Imitations were used extensively in ancient times. The Athenian owls were copied in at least 10 other civilizations I know of. To ancient people owls were the highest form of money, so of course local authorities minted copies of this "good" money.
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Moderator
 Australia
16808 Posts |
I would tend to agree with you, Carl, but I put "copy" with the general meaning simply because that seems to be the American "Hobby Protection Act" interpretation; this US law does not recognize these distinctions I have made; all classes of fake coins (whether contemporary counterfeit or modern reproduction) are supposed to have "COPY" stamped on them.
I forgot to mention another word that also falls into this category for discussion: a "restrike" is an exact duplicate of an old coin, with correct weight and fineness, made with official dies and usually at an official mint with some sort of government sanction (though an "unofficial restrike" is also possible, made from official dies that have fallen into private hands). Restrikes can also be made outside the country of origin of the original coin: Maria Theresa thalers dated 1780 were restruck well into the 20th century not just by Austria but by France, Italy, Belgium and Britain; Chinese Dollars were restruck by the USA to help finance the Nationalists in the Chinese Civil War.
Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
20753 Posts |
Quote: I would tend to agree with you, Carl, but I put "copy" with the general meaning simply because that seems to be the American "Hobby Protection Act" interpretation; this US law does not recognize these distinctions I have made; all classes of fake coins (whether contemporary counterfeit or modern reproduction) are supposed to have "COPY" stamped on them.
Not only that but imagine a reproduced Dime with the wording COUNTERFEIT or MODERN REPRODUCTION engraved on it?
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Valued Member
 South Africa
169 Posts |
Thanks That is a very clear and well laid out approach. What I get from this, is that it all goes about the intention of the person, does this mean inevitably that the same coin can be "Labelled" differently as it passes from one owner to the next depending on the intention of that person to pass /sell it as a original / imitation etc. Surely then the intention changes so the "label" we give the coin will therefore also change.
Which comes back to the issue for new collectors that they can be fooled into believing a certain piece is original when it is passed as such(E-bay etc). Is it only the US that have a protection act?. i do believe that there are counterfeits out there that are so good that even 3rd Party graders have been fooled and even slabbed these. Pretty scary thought, especially when you collect the very limited issues of scarce coins and not everyday coins that nobody would bother to counterfeit.
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Moderator
 Australia
16808 Posts |
Quote: What I get from this, is that it all goes about the intention of the person, does this mean inevitably that the same coin can be "Labelled" differently as it passes from one owner to the next depending on the intention of that person to pass /sell it as a original / imitation etc. Surely then the intention changes so the "label" we give the coin will therefore also change. Not quite. The above labelling system is all about the intention of the person manufacturing the coin. The forger/counterfeiter/fakemaster usually has a pretty good idea what their target market is when they make a fake coin, and the resultant "coins" reflect the amount of effort needed to sell to that market. But what subsequent owners do with their "products" is beyond their control. A coin originally produced as a tourist fake remains a tourist fake, even if a later owner attempts to sell it to some sucker on ebay as a genuine coin (as if it were a numismatic counterfeit). Quote: Is it only the US that have a protection act? Different countries have different laws, but as far as I'm aware, only the US has a law specifically for replica coins to have COPY stamped on them. Though most countries have some kind of laws in place to prevent people counterfeiting their own coins and banknotes, not all countries have specific laws regarding numismatic counterfeits. Prosecutions in countries without such laws usually happen via the more general crime of "fraud". In communist China, for example, making counterfeit coins from anywhere except communist China is perfectly legal - which is why so many modern counterfeit coins come from there. Here in Australia, making and selling fake coins that date from before 1966 is perfectly legal, so long as the seller is not attempting to defraud (that is, they are upfront abut the coins being fakes). In Canada, fake and fantasy Canadian coins are illegal, whether they've got COPY stamped on them or not, but non-Canadian coins are fair game (Canada is one of the main transit routes for fake ancient coins to come into the US from eastern Europe). In Greece and Turkey, buying and selling genuine ancient coins is illegal, but buying and selling fake ancient coins is perfectly fine. Quote: i do believe that there are counterfeits out there that are so good that even 3rd Party graders have been fooled and even slabbed these. Pretty scary thought... Absolutely. I've always thought one of the great weaknesses about the American TPG system is that it lulls people into a false sense of security. Slabbed coins may well be "safer", but they're not "safe". The best counterfeits are always the ones that haven't been detected yet, and even the TPGs can make mistakes. I believe our resident Spanish/Mexican counterfeit expert, Swamperbob, owns a couple of fake coins the TPGs have slabbed as genuine.
Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
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Valued Member
 South Africa
169 Posts |
Thanks SAP,Others, this was a very valuable post for me personally. I do believe I have a more clearer picture on some of these workings. In the end it is about knowledge,knowledge and more knowledge, this doesn't come quickly in books, but with time as you get more experience, so probably I will be taken for a ride a few times in the future still  . Schoolfees I believe.
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Valued Member
Canada
480 Posts |
Actually, in Canada, counterfeits of any paper money, metal money, or any other article of value is illegal (This covers Canadian and foreign issues), but this section of the criminal code is not always enforced.
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Valued Member
 South Africa
169 Posts |
Coinsnpaper, could you explain a bit more, is it illegal to deal/trade therin?, or is it illegal to have it in your posession?. As posted in another thread, My son has a few (5)US Morgans, etc that we brought in the Middle East. Although we do not live in Canada right now, we might be moving to US or Canada in a few years from now.
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Replies: 12 / Views: 3,533 |
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