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Swamperbob Got Fooled - Again

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swamperbob's Avatar
United States
5362 Posts
 Posted 08/09/2006  10:59 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
Lately I have seen quite a few posts complimenting my "skills" in the area of spotting counterfeit and altered coins. I want to thank the members who have made the comments, but I am far from perfect in that regard and even after 48 years of collecting, I still get fooled by coins in photographs and sometimes in person.

I wanted to show one that just came in the mail. I was fooled totally.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...190012950285

The coin was obviously artificially toned. But I believed it was done to cover an alteration. The seller - Anthony Torra of Revere is not a suspect in this possible deception. I don't want anyone to think that he was. He is a great guy to deal with. You see, I know the primary source of most of his Mexican coins and that source handles numerous alterations and forgeries. When I lived in New England this other dealer was a great source for forgeries because he tended to buy anything and everything and he got fooled A LOT! The source and I go back about 35 years, so I won't mention his name. He is a very good friend and he would never intentional defraud anyone. But he is the kind of dealer who doesn't really believe in counterfeits that contain silver. He is a large volume dealer and never uses ebay - he is a bit out of date.

So based on what I knew of the source and what I saw in the scans I believed it was a slam dunk for an obvious cae of an alteration.

You see the coin in the scan is apparently made from an OVERDATE die. The 7 was cut over a 6. It is a VERY SCARCE die variety listed in "Resplandores" and as such should command a large premium over the normal die variety. The seller did not describe it as the overdate.

The reason I didn't believe that Tony was involved in any alteration was because he didn't mention the overdate. Normally, I would have just advised Tony that he had missed a variety and I would have had no further interest, but I saw something else as well that made me interested in the coin. On the obverse (eagle side) of the coin, the eagle's left and right wing tips are WRONG. The feathers at the wing tip are NOT the same as the hub used to make the working dies in 1870. Since all 1870 coins made in Guanajuato were made from full HUBS there is no way that the feathers should look different - coin to coin - unless there was a post strike alteration.

So I was sure they had been added by engraving the coin to make it appear to be a higher grade. I presumed that the overdate feature - the trace of the loop of the 6 to the right of the 7 had also been added and that the toning was done to cover the alteration and to complete the illusion of an AU coin. True Uncirculated 1870 Go coins are very scarce to rare, so an AU is about as good as you can get.

When I got the coin, it was OBVIOUS that the coin was toned artificially. The coin is far from AU more like VF-EF. It has the details of an EF but lacks the mint luster needed to get that grade. It was likely overdipped or harshly cleaned before it was toned. A perfect candidate for a coin doctor.

But then I checked the two features I believed were engraved - the OD and the wing tips. I discovered THESE FEATURES WERE NOT ENGRAVED.

The overdate is absolutely original to the die and the die shares all of the same hairline cracks as known original copies. So that feature was not added. It is the VERY SCARCE reverse die.

But the real surprise was the wing tips. These "engraved" feathers are DIE FEATURES. This particular die was a weakly hubbed die that a mint engraver modified before it was placed into production. The mint worker apparently noticed that the feathers were missing on each wing tip and he used an engraving tool to add them to the die. This makes this one die unique for 1870. I don't know how many other copies exist using this die but other 1870 overdates DO NOT use this particular obverse die. So it represents a subvariety not listed in Resplandores.

I will now be hunting all 1870 Go coins to see if the recut eagle die was mated with a normal date cap die as well.

In this case, the error I made turned out very well. But it was an error. It also points out the complexity of this hobby and the fun that you can have in tracking down new die varieties.
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scoutjim99's Avatar
United States
4589 Posts
 Posted 08/09/2006  4:50 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add scoutjim99 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
At least your honest buddy. None of us are perfect.

how did any of the coins from the show fair
Edited by scoutjim99
08/09/2006 4:50 pm
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snowman's Avatar
United States
1840 Posts
 Posted 08/09/2006  7:39 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add snowman to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I wish I could make mistakes like that!
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swamperbob's Avatar
United States
5362 Posts
 Posted 08/09/2006  9:41 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
scoutjim - the coins came out just about as I expected - I have not had too much time to study them on detail however. I have not figured out what any of them are made of precisely. The 1809 seems to conform to the general Birmingham style but so far no exact match. I have about two hours allocated tomorrow at the bank to try to determine the die type. The same goes for the 1821 - but that one I am 90% sure I have a die match - I just need to confirm it from the coin itself.

We did finally get the AC back on but I am now getting ready for our trip up to New England. I have to squeeze in a few visits to dealers up there as well. I am going to try to get to Raleigh this Saturday before we pack but time may not permit it.

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Susanlynn9's Avatar
United States
5877 Posts
 Posted 08/09/2006  10:25 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Susanlynn9 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you for teaching us all from your mistake. That is part of what makes you invaluable here. We all make mistakes, but you turn them into learning experiences where everyone benefits.
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scoutjim99's Avatar
United States
4589 Posts
 Posted 08/10/2006  12:51 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add scoutjim99 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
glad to hear you have the Ac working .. It has been very hot here the humidity is terriable. And I cant wait to see what you find out.. also when you plan to come to the shop in greenville let me know.. I will hop in your hip. And learn what I can. thanks for the valuable Info you have taught me so far..
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thekidcollector's Avatar
Kuwait
1523 Posts
 Posted 08/10/2006  04:40 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add thekidcollector to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Hey!

This is one skill you have, no one is perfect, but youre sure a hard dog to beat!

A mistake is a lesson, ALWAYS!

TKC!
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