Trade Dollar No Mint Mark

those pictures look like they are from ebay and I doubt they can be enlarged but they are definately too small to see any inconsistancies on the coin, cant even see if its a correct die marriage from the photo's

I found the auction for the 1877 Trade dollar.

http://www.ebay.ph/viItem?ItemId=280014596998

There is nothing about the coin that jumps right out at me saying it is a counterfeit. However there are definite surface problems with this coin - either a harsh cleaning (most obvious on the obverse) which possibly could be an indication of a forgery. It is really very VERY hard to tell from tiny scans. There is also a pretty bad rim ding (or possibly two) that distort the rim. One ding effects the entire rim damaging both sets of dentils (see rim near base of wheat shock obverse and rim at D in UNITED on Reverse) - the other seems to effect one side only (see rim at star # 6 obverse). But a heavy rim ding is not something you usually see on a counterfeit. So far most forgers avoid that type of damage. I also see a few rather deep digs - which is also not typical for forgeries near their source.

I would ask for MUCH larger scans and possibly accept the coin as real. If anyone has the reference to do die types - I would be interested in whether or not this is a known die marriage.

Unfortunately, as Susan states, counterfeit Trade dollars are so common on the far side of the Pacific from the US that one almost must presume they are fake from the beginning until proven otherwise. (Guilty until proven innocent.) At first blush looking at the auction images, nothing jumps out at me screaming "Fake!" but this might mean only that counterfeiters are becoming more clever. Of course, the seller's low feedback score makes the auction even more suspect. Swamperbob is our counterfeit guru, so will wait for him to make an evaluation.

Fred

bobby131313 - thanks for the improved scans - I don't follow how you did it (non-technical guy here from the era of slide rules) but the pictures still leave me a bit uncertain.

There are coins that simply hide their identities very well in pictures. In person that is rarely the case, but I have seen some forgeries that were so good that they do get slabbed routinely as real.

Anyway, on these scans I noticed some Iron staining. There are several spots "reddish" - these are seen often on sea salvaged coins that are stored in or with iron. Examples - Liberty's Right Hand holding the Olive Branch and just below the Cotton Bale she is seated on (obverse). On the reverse they are more pronounced - the NE in Fine which may show some added contact corrosion - the N in UNITED and ICA in AMERICA also with apparent contact corrosion. Unfortunately the counterfeiters have adopted the sea water bath with iron filings as a way of "aging" their work. But on most real sea salvaged items iron contact occurs on ONE side NOT BOTH. If the coin was so isolated that it had iron contact on both sides it would likely be far more corroded.

I also noted some lines that cross letters and the "field levels" in between them. See the word DOLLAR especially the AR.

Finally I note with concern what appear to be "hollow" dentils. See the area below the word TRADE.

I have a "gut feeling" this one might be a fake - but I can't be certain. It is a very common date - so it is possible it is actually real. If it is real, the damage and cleaning would make it of limited value.