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Mint State Ancients

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sel_69l's Avatar
Australia
21786 Posts
 Posted 09/24/2010  03:55 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add sel_69l to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
After visiting many coins shows over the last ten years or so, I have seen increasing numbers of ancient gold and silver coins that are in mint state condition, and I am starting to get nervous.

I have been collecting Ancients for about 40 years now, so perhaps I can at least I can get some sort of feeling on just how many of these are genuine.

It all started about 10 years ago when a dealer had about 20 or so Rhodian Didrachms for sale all for what appeared a genuine asking price.

They were all in mint state, with absolutely no patination on them. All of the dies from which they were struck appeared different, but the styles were all consistent with coins of the period. Apart from the lack of patination, they all looked perfectly genuine.

Since then I have seen increasing numbers of Gold Staters of Philip 11 and Alexander the Great, all in perfect mint state. It is, by far, the most commonly observed grade that I have seen. The style, in each case that I have been able to examine closely, seems perfectly genuine.

Surely, and especially with soft gold coins, why should so many coins have no post mint damage at all after 2300 years?

Needless to say, I am very reticent about buying such pieces.
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maridvnvm's Avatar
United Kingdom
2099 Posts
 Posted 09/24/2010  04:08 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add maridvnvm to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Such coins in near mint state are likely to be hoard finds that were hidden shortly after they were minted. As far as patina is concerned it is likely that they have been cleaned after being found.
Martin
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sel_69l's Avatar
Australia
21786 Posts
 Posted 09/24/2010  06:07 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add sel_69l to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
In the case of the Rhodian Didrachms, indeed that was the explanation that was offered for them. I still just felt uneasy about them, but I didn't say anything, because it was impossible to be sure.

If you are going to expose something that you feel is wrong, you need indisputable proof.

I have an Alexandrian Tetradrachm of Ptolemy X11 of Roman Egypt that was unrecognisable when I bought it for very little. A specialist ancient coin dealer offered to clean it for nothing, because he was just as curious as I was. It was put into a weak solution of hydrochloric and sulphuric acid such that any reaction would proceed slowly. It proved to be of very good silver and genuine, but it still cleaned up with a sort of 'patination', quite unlike the Rhodian Didrachms I saw.
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maridvnvm's Avatar
United Kingdom
2099 Posts
 Posted 09/24/2010  07:29 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add maridvnvm to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Indeed it is difficult to be sure. Many dealers who obtain an uncleaned silver hoard direct from the source do not have the time or inclination to carefully clean each coin individually and will often clean then in a group in a chemical bath. This is far more aggressive than the relatively slow process that you describe having gone through with your coin. The result of this more aggressive approach is that the coins will lose all/almost all patination. This means that they can attempt to move the coins on more quickly.
It isn't in the best interest of the coins but their pockets.
Regards,
Martin
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Sap's Avatar
Australia
16810 Posts
 Posted 09/24/2010  08:06 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Sap to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Both patination and wear/damage are easily simulated by someone selling fake ancient coins. Anyone buying worn or patinated coins on the assumption that those are signs of authenticity could be in for a nasty surprise.

Quote:
...It was put into a weak solution of hydrochloric and sulphuric acid... it still cleaned up with a sort of 'patination'...

I'd say that was the result of using hydrochloric acid. HCl doesn't react with silver metal itself but can react with silver compounds on the surface (such as silver sulfide) to produce silver chloride, also known as "horn silver". This will tend to form a thin layer in the spots previously occupied by the patina. AgCl is insoluble in water and just about everything else, so it won't wash off once you take the coin out of the solution, but it will decompose into elemental chlorine and silver on exposure to light, turning the surface of the coin darker and "recreating" the patina more or less where it had been before.

I suspect many hoard coins are cleaned using basic jewellery formulations like Tarn-X or Jeweluster. This would strip the old patina off completely. Repatination of such coins is normally done by application of sulfur jelly, or some similar agent. "Deller's Darkener" is the usual formulation sold by coin supply stores. Obviously, fake coins can be patinated in much the same way.

Wear and damage can be simulated simply by jostling a pile of freshly minted coins together for awhile. Even the famous counterfeiter Becker knew way back in the 1700s that "taking his boys for a ride", by tossing them into a box full of iron filings attached to his carriage, made them more acceptable to the gullible collectors of his day. A gemstone tumbler would work just as adequately today.

The Rhodian didrachm I use for my avatar is nicely patinated, but I doubt it came out of the ground looking like that; it was probably heavily tarnished. First it would have been stripped down to bare metal in the cleaning process (it probably looked "mint state" at that stage), then repatinated - either artificially, or "naturally" by sitting in someone's coin cabinet for decades. I don't really know, since I don't know its provenance beyond the dealer that sold it to me.

I personally don't like, and don't use, the terms "mint state" or "uncirculated" for ancient coins. These terms mean "just as it was minted, entirely undamaged and unchanged". That's just not possible for an ancient coin (except perhaps for gold), because all ancient coins (except perhaps for gold) have been cleaned, and cleaning is damage. gEF is as high as I'm prepared to go.
Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
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CanadianCoinGuy's Avatar
Canada
54 Posts
 Posted 01/12/2011  7:12 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add CanadianCoinGuy to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Ya,if a coin is that nice,you better have it sent for slabbing.Like he said,minty gold coins you can get into MSing & AUing,but again,that is best for a good grader company to do.Any bronze coin that old cant be in mint state right?(patina,ect)
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