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Valued Member
423 Posts |
Got my 3 coins today. They came stuck to a black folder, as someone has already pointed out. The post office just left them in the mail box. No signature required. Some extra marketing material was also included. Coins are better than as pictured as I have said before with my friends coins. My local bank is closed now, I already know they will take them from me as I know the staff fairly well, but that to me is not the point.
Ugly: Did they go directly to US dealers or to a Canadian dealer who passed them on to a US dealer you think.?
C_C: So the post by Dave was true. How did you find out? Master Member benefit?
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
598 Posts |
Okay... here's the blow-in flyer that caused me mom to need one of these things. No specs.  So, I'm talking to her on the phone and I sell her one for 21 bucks... c'mon, don't look at me that way (btw, my dad paid for it and gave me 25... who am I to say no to a tidy little profit  ). And the first thing she says when I drop it off to her... "wow, it's a lot smaller than I thought".   >>> edit >>> p.s. note "Provincial Sales Tax extra in provinces where they are applicable."; just above the "Limit 3 coins per person."; in the finest print. It now rains confusion... and I will sing and dance in it. WoooHooo!>>>  Edited by IBGolden
02/28/2011 9:56 pm
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
1581 Posts |
Exchange $20 (of your hard earned real money) for $20 (of implied exactly the same value money) The RCM has risked the entire franchise with this stunt, unless they make it fully useful legal tender. |
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Valued Member
Canada
248 Posts |
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Valued Member
423 Posts |
Quote:Exchange $20 (of your hard earned real money) for $20 (of implied exactly the same value money) The RCM has risked the entire franchise with this stunt, unless they make it fully useful legal tender. I feel the same way dialog_gvf. That said, the RCM hopefully will start getting feedback (or a big stink will have been made) about their marketing strategy and may ask the ministry to write a letter to the banks to remind them of what legal tender is and how it should be handled. Also the banks, might decide on their own to play nicely. This is a nice modern (at least I was alive when it happened) lesson in NCLT's RCM tokens, the currency act, de facto law, marketing, problems/limitations with the Canadian monetary system etc.. The coins should be ok to unload if need be - just stand your ground at the banks - but not as easily as we are lead to believe by the RCM's marketing propaganda department. Then again the RCM sold 200,000 coins at $20 a shot, has a nice marketing list of new clients for a cost of about ~$7 a token and sold out in about a month. The next version of the coin might also cure cancer*. (*Well even if a fraction of a few cents get filter through the RCM to the government for cancer research it would be kind of true. :P). |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2408 Posts |
Silver edged up again, so the token is now worth close to $9.
Collectors of circulation notes should not despair. Price of raw paper saw a 20% increase in 2010. Keep those bills, you never know.
Edited by canadian_coins
03/01/2011 09:57 am
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
1733 Posts |
I was thinking about this last night and there really IS a way the Mint could score a coup de gras on this issue. Issue these 20 dollar coins in the millions. Make them available everywhere, as common as Tim Horton cups littering the ground in Winnipeg, Burnaby or Halifax. It would be a two-fer. Half of them would get stashed and the other half would enter circulation en masse forcing them to be handled. They'd force the banks to do their bidding and remove a whole pile of face value currency from circulation with the simple stroke of a die. Gather them up and remelt, do it all over again.
This would require Ministry approval, since they have limited wiggle room in how much face value they can produce.
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Valued Member
Canada
150 Posts |
Who says they need ministry approval? They could always say that several thousand sheets of freshly printed $20 were burned in a fire and they decided to replace them with the new $20 silver coins because they would last much longer and prove to be a cost savings for the government |
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
1733 Posts |
They need Ministry approval under the letter of understanding in order to not exceed their allowed face value mintage. They do not have carte blanche to flood the market with currency, the number is agreed to from year to year via the Ministry with input from BOC and other sources.
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Valued Member
423 Posts |
Ugly: I don't follow you on the coup de gras. First, the RCM does something like this with .999 nickels and I have used it as a complaint. Making something then destroying and making it again while getting paid is borderline fraud. Second, Gresham's law will eventually kick in and the silver will be kept and the paper spent. Third, the two-fer? 1. Do people buy one half (pay the premium) the stashed part and the second half get release buy the RCM as circulation? This would fail because of Gresham's law and the half the RCM released would not make the $20 face-$~8 silver= $12 a coin profit for the RCM because the RCM didn't have people pay for the circulation pieces. 2. If all are released by the RCM as circulation - see Gresham's law. 3. If all are paid for customers see Gresham's law. Sure some would get spent, but they would be tracked down in a hurry. It would only work I think if the government honestly wanted to partially back the dollar against a commodity (silver). Replace the $20 paper with $20 silver coin fully. Maybe I am wrong in my reasoning. |
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
1733 Posts |
That's the two-fer, enough will be spent that they will be accepted and enough will be kept that they don't have to consider the total amounted minted as a liability against the BOC's books.
The coup de gras is asserting their will over the banks without having to fight about it.
It will never happen of course, these are much more expensive to produce than 20 dollar bills. I was having fun.
Gresham's law on the other hand is is not a Law in the scientific sense, but merely an observation. It wasn't even his observation come to think of it. It's just something he parroted. It breaks down for example in hyper inflated economies. Not much of a law when it doesn't always work. In a hyper inflated economy, it's often the exact opposite as people will only accept currency of worth, even if it's not printed/minted in that country.
In our case here, as long as that coin only holds half it's face value spending power in metal, it will be perceived as disposable... hang on to 8 dollars worth of silver, or buy twenty dollars worth of goods/services is the decision one must make. As collectors, we are biased and want to hold every coin we come across (My basement is a prime example, literally dozens of full airtight coleman coolers weighing thousands of pounds). This collection philosophy isn't true for the population at large.
Everything I am discussing here happened the same way in the 70's with Olympic silver coins. People were happy to try and spend them even though they contained silver and even though silver coins had been debased in 1968. Because the face value exceeded it's intrinsic metal content, it was disposable.
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Valued Member
423 Posts |
Quote:
That's the two-fer, enough will be spent that they will be accepted and enough will be kept that they don't have to consider the total amounted minted as a liability against the BOC's books.
The coup de gras is asserting their will over the banks without having to fight about it.
I do not know the Bank of Canada act at all. When time permits I will give it a read. Maybe there should be no need for a fight? It seems to me the welfare of Canada should be a fundamental and legal tender (notes or coins) should have some fundamental meaning already. Canada isn't that young anymore. Quote:
It will never happen of course, these are much more expensive to produce than 20 dollar bills. I was having fun. Well the with the path the Yankees are taking and we are following - who knows what is possible. I understand this is theory, but something can be learned. Quote:
Gresham's law on the other hand is is not a Law in the scientific sense, but merely an observation. It wasn't even his observation come to think of it. It's just something he parroted. It breaks down for example in hyper inflated economies. Not much of a law when it doesn't always work. In a hyper inflated economy, it's often the exact opposite as people will only accept currency of worth, even if it's not printed/minted in that country. I understand Gresham's law isn't a scientific law. Everything breaks down in hyper inflated economies. Food, soap, clothes (the basics) are valuable in that case. And the silver coins would be worth more than the paper notes which was my point under those conditions/kind of like nowish. Plus, enough people are starting to do it with cents, nickels, silver coins right now. Not the greatest example, but I believe you know where I am trying to go with it. Quote:
In our case here, as long as that coin only holds half it's face value spending power in metal, it will be perceived as disposable... hang on to 8 dollars worth of silver, or buy twenty dollars worth of goods/services is the decision one must make. As collectors, we are biased and want to hold every coin we come across (My basement is a prime example, literally dozens of full airtight coleman coolers weighing thousands of pounds). This collection philosophy isn't true for the population at large. I agree in general. But also see, copper cents, .999 nickels etc... Read this thread and others like it. If you are going to hold cash, would you hold the silver or the paper? The economy isn't so hot right now and people are holding cash. (I wish I had a collection like that. Maybe one day. Still just working on my little nickel collection.) Quote:
Everything I am discussing here happened the same way in the 70's with Olympic silver coins. People were happy to try and spend them even though they contained silver and even though silver coins had been debased in 1968. Because the face value exceeded it's intrinsic metal content, it was disposable.
I was not alive at the time, so I do not know the history well. At first in this thread I was looking at the angles of people trying to game the RCM. Foreign coin poaching, speculation etc... and thought the RCM did a good balancing act with this coin all things considered. Then I looked the RCM trying to game the people. $20 of liquid paper for ~$8 of silver with a face of $20 that isn't so liquid. People can decide what they want. I learned what I wanted to by going through the exercise. Edited by realpenny
03/01/2011 5:06 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2408 Posts |
Quote:Then I looked the RCM trying to game the people. $20 of liquid paper for ~$8 of silver with a face of $20 that isn't so liquid. Think of the cost to produce, manage and distribute. I believe the Mint did pretty good for the people here, despite the issue with NCLT that has been illustrated in this thread. Expecting the mint to stuff $20 worth of silver in a $20 face value coin, sold for $20 - and freely distributed is impossible to achieve. The good news is that the Mint is aware of our concerns and they may issue a formal statement re-enforcing the Legal Status of NCLT coins in the coming weeks. |
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Valued Member
423 Posts |
^^^ My point was I looked at both sides from different angles. I have a pro and con column built up in my mind with weights to each point. Yes there is a cost, but did the RCM have a huge stockpile of $5 an oz silver (unlikely) or are they melting down old coins to mint these and at what cost did they get those coins for etc...? Management - well it is the government and that doesn't come cheap. I believe the RCM and Post Office have an deal for distribution, don't know what that cost is or the percentage. We agree, the RCM balanced the coin out as I discussed in the beginning of this thread. The RCM marketing and knowledge of true legal tender issues is a pretty big slam though, not to be down played. As I pointed out earlier in this thread it is unreasonable to get $20 of silver into a $20 face coin and I gave reasons why I thought this. I never expected the impossible. Glad to hear the last part C_C. I have finished my letter to the RCM and will be sending it along now that I have a better understand of the issues. |
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
1733 Posts |
Mine showed up in the mail today... I'm actually rather impressed with the design, definitely looks better in hand. The cost is negligible, the value debatable, nonetheless it's a coin and since it doesn't have a buck toothed prince on it I'm pleased overall.
Pretty. Shiny.
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Posted 02/28/2011 9:47 pm
