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Very Unsure About This Coin. 1896A 10 Centimes Error?

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Jaymon74's Avatar
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 Posted 02/10/2011  11:05 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add Jaymon74 to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
Hi all!

I was adding my new purchases to my coin collection. (cataloging etc.) I found the coin in the book and was trying to find out if it was a 1896A(f) or 1896A(t). So there was that. I got to looking very closely at the mint mark and the Privy Marks. This is where I'm confused and unsure.

The mark to the right of the A is definitely a Hammer. (we'll get to that one)

The mark to the left (the Engraver Generals Privy Mark) looks to be an upside-down torch. The torch would make sense because it was used from 1896-1926 (Henri Patey). It shouldn't be upside-down though. Is this an error?

The other mark, the hammer, doesn't make sense because it was only used L'AN 14-1812 (Daumy). I'm not exactly sure about the way the dating works though. I put what the book says. So if you know what this means, please, explain.

Anyhoo, here is the photos, and thank you for the help.



Very-Unsure-About-This-Coin.-1896A-10-Centimes-Error??

Very-Unsure-About-This-Coin.-1896A-10-Centimes-Error??

Very-Unsure-About-This-Coin.-1896A-10-Centimes-Error??

Very-Unsure-About-This-Coin.-1896A-10-Centimes-Error??
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svslav's Avatar
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 Posted 02/11/2011  01:52 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add svslav to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The engravers mark (to the right of A) is not a hammer (hammer was used at Toulouse mint), it's Fasces, which is consistent with the dating, 1880 - 1896. So the torch is out as well, the coin wouldn't have two engravers. I'm not sure what it is to the left of MM, neither this symbol nor the year (for the mint director privy mark) is listed in Krause.
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Jaymon74's Avatar
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 Posted 02/11/2011  07:37 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Jaymon74 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I have the Krause book as well. The 6th edition. It states that "Most coins manufactured by the French mints contain two or three small 'marks or Differents' as the french call them. These privy marks represent the men responsible for the dies which struck the coins." Also. "During some issue dates, however, the marks changed when the date didn't, even though it should have."

You are correct with the "Fascas" I looked again under 16x with a different light. This would explain the "Engraver Generals' Privy Mark" The other mark would be the "Mint Directors' Privy Mark" to which I am still unsure of.
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Jaymon74's Avatar
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 Posted 02/11/2011  11:56 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Jaymon74 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
So.... Nobody else have an answer on this one?

See, I can look them up all day long... I just don't know how to decipher all the Numismatic lingo on the foreign coins. I've done the best I could.
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 Posted 02/12/2011  02:35 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Sap to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
In 1880, with the last of the branch mints (Bordeaux) mothballed and only the Paris mint remaining in operation, the French mint system was reformed. Among the changes, the "Engraver General" became the "Chief Engraver" and the system of assigning different privy marks to individual mint directors ceased; this privy mark was transferred to the "office" of Mint Director, rather than the individual man, and never changed again; in effect the second privy mark became redundant, a second mintmark which was pictorial rather than alphabetical in nature.

By 1896, there was only one mint in France still striking 10 centime coins: Paris. At Paris, the mintmark was "A" and the Mint Directorate privy mark was "cornucopia". In 1896, there was a change of Chief Engraver with resultant change in privy marks, some coins bearing that date have the older fasces (f) privy mark, others bear the newer torch privy mark (t). But the cornucopia-for-Paris privy mark would appear on both varieties in 1896.

So to answer your main concern: even though it doesn't really look like one, the privy mark on your coin to the left of the "A" is a cornucopia. The privy mark on the right is a fasces.
Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
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Jaymon74's Avatar
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 Posted 02/12/2011  11:11 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Jaymon74 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Sap, Where did you get this information? I have read and reread this section of Krause and really couldn't decide on what was going on with this coin. Evidently you have a better source on this. So to answer my original question that got me into "trouble", this would be an 1896A(f)?

I think you could see where I was confused on the mark to the left. I spent a great deal of time trying to figure out what it was. When I turned it upside down the mark looked very much like a torch.

Anyhoo, thank you very much for the information.
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 Posted 02/12/2011  11:53 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Sap to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Sap, Where did you get this information?

In my 3rd edition 1800s Krause, the introductory section under "Mint Marks and Privy Marks", the last sentence of the first paragraph reads, "Since 1880 this privy mark has represented the office rather than the personage of both the Administration of Coins and Medals and the Mint Director, and a standard privy mark has been used (cornucopia)." (emphasis mine). I also know that the "cornucopia mintmark" continued to be used on French and French Colonial coins throughout the 20th century, long after the "A-for-Paris" mintmark letter fell into disuse, and it can still be seen on the Euro coins struck in Paris on behalf of France, Monaco and Luxembourg.

Quote:
...this would be an 1896A(f)?

Yes.
Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
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Jaymon74's Avatar
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 Posted 02/15/2011  8:43 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Jaymon74 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Ok Sap, thank you very much for that information!
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