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1807 Ocho Reales - But Is It Real?

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Rest in Peace
pls's Avatar
United States
1729 Posts
 Posted 03/07/2011  12:09 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add pls to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
For your consideration - an 1807 ocho reales "pillar dollar" which I won in an online auction a few weeks ago. The only provenance that I know about is that it came out of a estate collection of a long-time collector, probably from Wisconsin. It passes the "ring" test, weighs .923 oz/8525 troy ounces, is the same size as a silver dollar, and as you can see in the edge scan, is slightly bent. Nothing that I can see screams "fake", but then I wouldn't know a fake if it jumped up and bit me in the bippy. Opinions?

1807-Ocho-Reales---But-Is-It-Real?
1807-Ocho-Reales---But-Is-It-Real?
1807-Ocho-Reales---But-Is-It-Real?
Pillar of the Community
swamperbob's Avatar
United States
5362 Posts
 Posted 03/07/2011  4:10 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
pls The coin is in my opinion a "Bullion Forgery". A coin produced unofficially in the 1870-1930 time frame that was made for export to China. The coins were produced in many locations possibly including Mexico to meet the desires of the Chinese merchants who preferred HIGH GRADE Bustman coins. To facilitate trade and to get a 5% or higher premium being paid by the Chinese - many groups made these coins. The US government entered negotiations to build a mint in California to make Bustman coins. The coins are typically FULL WEIGHT, FULL ALLOY SILVER and they conform to the originals in most ways. They are difficult to detect. Most remain undetected.

In this grade that is actually good news for you because an original and a bullion forgery are treated identically by the vast majority of collectors. There are very few dealers who draw the distinction. The lower grades especially are essentially the same value because Collectors of Bullion Forgeries would normally be looking for a higher grade trying to detect surface anomalies. So at this grade there will be reduced interest from both groups of collectors.

So it is sort of up to you how you classify the coin. It is real silver, approximately 100 years old minimum, it did see actual circulation and it passed as real. It may actually be a Mexican restrike (but I doubt it based on the edge). If you want to be technical it was not what it represented itself to be.

The weight translation is about 26.5 grams which is good for the observed wear. The coin did circulate extensively and I would believe it was silver and will test near 10.3. The die work is typical of the original issues.

The clue to status is the edge. Notice the square sided circles. Also I think I can see the start of diagonal grip marks on the right side. Hard to see the diagonals for sure.
Rest in Peace
pls's Avatar
United States
1729 Posts
 Posted 03/07/2011  4:48 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add pls to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Very interesting. I think I'll take it to the local coin club meeting tonight - we're having a grading session, and I'll see if our president wants to add it to the fun. I'll take it out of the 2x2 so that people can check out the edge. I felt that it had seen circulation, based on the scratches and anomalies (how many Chinese fakes are slightly bent?), but I certainly had no idea whether it had emerged from the Mexico City mint or somewhere else. Thanks!
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