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 Replies: 15 / Views: 2,238 |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts |
Since I collect counterfeit coins - I believe that ebay should allow posting of "Legal" counterfeits, however, ebay tends to punish honest sellers who label counterfeits correctly while allowing blatant fraud. My focus is on Mexican and Spanish Colonial 8Rs, but in case anyone is interested I decided to post what I find tonight. I divide them into two groups: Circulating contemporary counterfeits Modern Numismatic counterfeits All listed below are legal counterfeits. Here is what I found: Circulating contemporary counterfeits 1. ebay item 3970822189 (Ends Apr-25-05 20:46:18 PDT) - " Rare 1817 Mexico 8 Reales Silver Coin XF+ " - This is an early forgery - note that the assayer initails are incorrect - JJ is correct for 1817 - nothing else. Seller is not a fraud - seems to be unaware. I have bought a few from this guy. 2. ebay item 3970822726 (Ends Apr-25-05 20:55:22 PDT) -" Rare 1819 Mexico 8 Reales Silver Coin XF+ - I own a nearly identical copy that I bought from this same seller. It is an early counterfeit with the wrong assayer initials once again. Modern Numismatic counterfeits 1. ebay item 3971363951 (Ends Apr-25-05 13:47:24 PDT) - 1882 Silver Mexican Coin UnKnown ? - this coin is a modern copy - non-silver - made with a reeded edge and the weight posted is about average 20-22 grams instead of 27 grams Very slim pickings tonight. These three are absolutely fake - there are 5 or 6 others that I suspect but am not 100% sure of. If anyone has or sees any counterfeits - please drop me a line |
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Rest in Peace
United States
2884 Posts |
Swamperbob and others, here’s the direct links from the post above http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...m=3970822189http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...m=3970822726http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...m=3971363951This is great stuff swamperbob. The first two coins look very real and the seller guarantees their authenticity!!! Surprise surprise! However the second guy says he performed the old "scrape it on a rock test" and it left "silver residue" so it must be silver! Hard to bust this guy (LOL) because he says he does not even know what kind of coin he has! He then has a letter posted to the auction with someone telling him it is an 8 Reales coin from Mexico and that I assume is supposed to lend credibility to the sale! I noticed that with one day to go the bids are only about $25.00! I think I might buy the first two even if they are fakes! (Unless you want them) What do the early fakes usually sell for? What is a fair bid for me to place on them? Do they have numismatic value even as counterfeits? You also term them "Legal Counterfeits" ! This sounds contradictory. You mention having purchased fakes from this dealer before. Did you tell him they were fakes? Do you know about what year they were "minted"/ "coined" if that is the right word. I did notice you termed them contemporary counterfeits so I assume they were produced around the same time the real ones were made. We have noticed that most of or at least a lot of the fakes on ebay come out of China. I see that is where this guy sells from. Very interesting post, please keep it up. Mike  As a side note take a look at these " Trade dollars" this dealer sold a few weeks ago that drew him negs even though the auction stated he did not know if they were real. The last link here is another bunch of 8 Reales he has for sale now! I put in two bids just for fun. I am the only bidder who allowed his identity to be known! Why do you think that is? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...m=3968358614http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...m=3968358578http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZwondialpercoinsEdited by Mike
04/27/2005 1:56 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2724 Posts |
As one who has done some studies on counterfeits and we own quite a few also, my problem with selling them are often with the seller. There are certainly some who truly have no clue what they own, or how to judge authenticity. This leads collectors down the wrong path. In my opinion, this falls into the same catagory as TV coins. The collector pays way too much for a coin that they believe has the value and "we" as a whole lose. When the colector finds that they have paid way to much, or feel scammed, they often leave the hobby.
If the coin is marked as copy, and accurately descriped as such, then this would be acceptable.
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
5362 Posts |
Hello Mike - I will be brief because I had just typed a long reply and it got lost before I could post it. The 1817 and 1819 forgeries are really good ones but the age is uncertain. Therefore I am not willing to go over $50 each. Neither are any of my specialist friends. I hoped they were part of the Birmingham group but in person they do not seem to be in that category. There are 2 major categories of counterfeits - Circulating and non-circulating. The first were made to pass as real money and the second were not. There are categories within each type but that distinction is critical. If the 1817 and 1819 can be tied to the "Birmingham" forgery period they are worth over $100 - if they could be tied to Riddell they would be worth $75 to $100 or so. If they are Boston 1870s commercial copies they are $50 coins - if they are 1920s merchants copies from China they are $20 coins and if they are modern numismatic forgeries from China they are $10 items. The key is when were they made. One way to tell is an XRF test. There are certain trace contaminant metals seen in silver from Mexican mines that is not well know (yet). These trace contaminants can be used for identification and authentication. Smart counterfeiters like Slavey in Bulgaria get around this by melting real culls but most forgers are not that sophisticated. I used to have easy access to an XRF apparatus when I lived in New England but since I retired to North Carolina I have not located one that I can use free (or for a reasonable cost). By Legal counterfeit I am referring to current US law. Non-circulating foreign coins that are not legal tender are legal to own and possess under current law - even if they are not marked. Some of these same coins would be illegal to own (technically) in Mexico but fully legal to manufacture and sell in China or Bulgaria. US coins on the other hand are simply illegal to own or possess or sell even if there is no intention to defraud. The law is rarely enforced however. Importing counterfeits - say from China by mail is of course illegal but it is also never enforced. I have a real problem with the guy that sold the 1882 8R and the other Trade dollars - all of those are recently made injection molded fakes (Modern Numismatic forgeries) that sell in overseas markets for as little as a few cents each. I think $1 to 10 is more than fair. I own perhaps 100 different varieties. There is one fellow from China who takes orders. About 4 years ago I asked if he could get copies of 12 different dollar types - inside 3 weeks he had 10 of the 12 and I paid $3.50 each delivered. The last two were rare originals that he could not locate. The problem I have is that he posted the question that identified his coin as an 8R but he didn't post my question to him that clearly identified what this piece of junk really was. Why didn't he post my letter? The sale price of $22 is nothing short of criminal. |
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Forum Mom
 United States
5877 Posts |
There are a couple of possibilities as to why your question was not posted. The first (and hopefully the real one) is that if there are less than 12 hours left in an auction, you cannot display questions or end your item early. The second is that he just wanted to make money and hoped that the buyer would not know it was fake. With ebay, it could be either one. Did you receive a response from the seller of the coin? If not, I would think it was the second reason. The modern cast forgeries bring in good money for the dishonest sellers on ebay. ebay stated that they were going to crack down on these, but so far they seem to act on a minimal number of auctions (and then it seems to be only the new Chinese sellers). Sellers who have reached powerseller status have been allowed to flout a number of ebay's rules for quite some time before action is taken.  |
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Rest in Peace
United States
2884 Posts |
Swamperbob, I hate to tell you this but the final Link I posted is the same dealer that you bought the "Contemporary Counterfeits" from in the past. I think he is breaking the rules and knows it. I wrote him questioning the authenticity of the coins based on your information and did not get a response! Both the 1817 and 1819 sold to anonymous bidders for over $100.00 per coin! The other seller sold one of the fake Trade dollars for over $60.00. Both are rip offs unless stated to be reproductions or counterfeits in my opinion!!! I'm�sure very few people have the intimate knowledge about these coins that you do. Mike  |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts |
I did check the seller and I agree it is simple fraud. My question to the seller was posted days not hours before it ended and he never replied to my comment. Also based on his other stuff I presumed that he is simply a seller of bogus material. Like the guys in the flea markets. If it seems to good to be true it is.
I don't have a lot of sympathy for people who buy these counterfeits in Private auctions. Especially in the case of the 1817 and 1819 coins - all anyone has to do is check the date, mint and assayer combinations. In both 1817 and 1819 the only assayer was JJ. The last TH assayer was in 1811 associated with the transitional bust of Ferdin VII and the FM assayer was not used after way back in 1803 on the Charles IIII coins. Anyone who believes that such a coin can be real needs to buy a standard catalog before wasting $100 on a forgery.
I have a sign on my wall - a quote from Aaron Feldman - "Buy the book BEFORE the coin." I have always tried to follow that motto.
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Forum Mom
United States
5877 Posts |
I have never understood people who seem to want to throw away hundreds of dollars at a time without taking the time to research what they're buying (and from whom). These are the same people who are the first to whine when they get taken, too. The resources are out there for anyone who wants to use them. There are books on everything, loads of websites, forums galore - yet, these people will still throw money away in the hope of getting something for nothing. It's sad...  |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts |
As a follow-up to my last post. I used to contact bidders and try to warn them off counterfeits. But I got in trouble with everyone for that - even some bidders. But it was ebay that took the greatest exception to my actions. I was chilling the market by warning bidders and sellers were complaining. So I eventually quit - but I still have the second ebay name "THIS_IS_COUNTERFEIT". At least ebay didn't terminate it. In one particular case, a fellow from Mexico bid $500 for an obviously altered 8R coin. The seller was Chinese and he guaranteed the coin was REAL. The coin was dated 1865 and was from the Alamos mint. That is a $1000 coin. Only one problem, the dies used were the "standardized dies" and even the "dragon's teeth" were clearly visible in the scan. The standardized dies were not used in Alamos until 1887 and of course the birds are not even similar (if you know your Mexican eagles that is). Well the bidder wouldn't believe me and the seller didn't reply. The seller was CHINA BOY a now defunct ID. Instead the bidder placed bids on two other altered "rarities" from the same seller after getting written assurances that if the coins were not REAL that he could return them. The sale completed and the buyer paid almost $1200 for the three RARE coins. To make a long story even longer the buyer got the coins - took them to an ANA dealer and got a surprise. Not fully convinced, he then submitted them for authentication to ANACS and got them back in bodybags. He then contacted the seller. The seller's defense was that he never said they were the RARE dates - just that they were REAL coins which in fact they were. ebay supported the seller and the buyer was out his money. He then contacted me and asked how I knew. I ended up buying the three coins from him for $15 each and gave him lessons on how to tell the difference between real and fake coins on ebay. I now consider him a good friend (the bidder not China boy.) |
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Forum Mom
United States
5877 Posts |
They also sell quite a few US bust, seated, and Trade dollars that either have bogus dates (the type coin was not minted in that year at all), the wrong reverse, reeded edges when it should have been lettered, etc. Some people truly don't want to listen. It's like they're begging to be scammed. With all of your knowledge, I'm glad you're on our side! |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts |
The kind of coin you are describing, the ones which "have bogus dates (the type coin was not minted in that year at all), the wrong reverse, reeded edges when it should have been lettered" are technically Fantasies. These are my favorites. In the colonial Spanish issues the big thing is the Wrong King series. Riddell has a seperate section devoted to these Wrong King coins. There are examples of each of the Kings dated too early and many many more dated too late. I own a very well executed struck copy of a Charles III 8R dated 1896. He reigned from 1789 to 1808 - so my coin is dated 88 years AFTER he was dead. It was made about 1900 to 1910 in China. I also enjoy the coins from fantasy mints - in the cap and ray series of Mexican 8Rs you find many non-existant mints - BX, D, Ds, G, Is, Ls, M, MRC, Ms, oD, P, TF, X and Z. Finally, there are the technical fantasies where incorrect elements are used - in the Cap and Ray series. My favorites are the 2R style eagle used on the 8R and the 8 Escudo eagle used on the 8R. You could include coins that mate a Zacatecas eagle with a Guanajuato cap, but these distinctions require a good eye and absolute familiarity with eagle styles. There are some sellers who hide behind the Fantasy distinction. I recall a west coast dealer who operated on ebay (since deceased) who sold many of the Camarillo Brothers forgeries of the 1824 Mo Hookneck 8R. He sold one for over $300 which ticked me off because the buyer was a real novice who had no idea that these were fake. So I started a long series of emails with the seller in which he defended his selling practices and blamed the novice for failing to do research. In his text, he called the coins "old" - because in his words they were made in 1965 and a 1965 Mustang is old isn't it? He also said they were "genuine" (read that to mean the coin exists nothing else) "original variety" (this meant fantasy. The Camarillo's avoided prosecution in Mexico because the coins were made with a reeded edge and the Mexican mint used an engrailled edge.) I went around and around with the fellow and he never agreed that his text was deceptive or that he was doing anything wrong. He hid behind the words and his meaning of those words - truly a case of let the buyer be VERY aware. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts |
I really don't know how to post an active link, but this is an interesting forgery. It is very crude and does not really look like an original yet it is getting bids because people are greedy. If you read the text can anyone really think it is real? Click here: ebay item 3971362215 (Ends Apr-29-05 15:00:00 PDT) - MEXICO SPAIN COIN - 8 REALES MF 1732 - RARE! MX |
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Forum Mom
United States
5877 Posts |
Hi Bob, In order to post a link, just highlight it in the address bar, copy it, and then paste it into your post. Once you have pasted it into your post, just highlight the entire link and click on the 6th button from the right in the post box. (If you hover over the button it will say "Insert Hyperlink". Here is the link to the above auction http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...m=3971362215In response to your question, no I don't see how anyone can think that it's real. Yet, I'm sure that whoever wins it will end up complaining that it was fake. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts |
Thanks - here is another I saw tonight - the coin here if really dated 1866 would be super rare - however the Cap and Eagle are both "Standardized". These designs were not introduced until 1870. So what you have here is an altered original. The seller is of course Chinese and the bidder identities private. How do you spell fraud? https://goccf.com/ebay ebay /a item 3972053204 (Ends May-02-05 09:29:39 PDT) - RARE MEXICO 1866 Ca,FP 8 REALES VF+ " target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Click here: a target= _blank id= keywords href= https://goccf.com/ebay ebay /a item 3972053204 (Ends May-02-05 09:29:39 PDT) - RARE MEXICO 1866 Ca,FP 8 REALES VF+ |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts |
Here is another altered Cap and Ray 8R - if this was real it would have a catalog value of about $1250. However, it is altered. It was made from a Guadalajara 8R dated 1887 or later. It has "dragon's teeth" and uses the Standardized Mexico City dies. https://goccf.com/ebay ebay /a item 3972532834 (Ends May-07-05 15:25:31 PDT) - 8 Reales 1845 Ga JG " target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Click here: a target= _blank id= keywords href= https://goccf.com/ebay ebay /a item 3972532834 (Ends May-07-05 15:25:31 PDT) - 8 Reales 1845 Ga JG |
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Rest in Peace
United States
2884 Posts |
Bob, That link is to Bobby and Susans Website! I hope they were not selling it! Mike
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Replies: 15 / Views: 2,238 |
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Posted 04/24/2005 09:35 am
