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 Replies: 10 / Views: 2,767 |
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New Member
Mexico
22 Posts |
Can anyone help me put a value on this Bust Half? It has 2 chops on the reverse and a test drill on the obverse. In Rose's Book 'CHOPMARKS', he says all US minor coins are rare.   Edited by CincoPicos
05/18/2011 12:57 pm
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Moderator
 United States
23731 Posts |
Interesting coin, I haven't seen many of these with chop marks so I can't comment on it's value.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
8904 Posts |
Echizento has a point. I also, have not seen any Capped Bust Halfs with chopmarks. That being said, the chopmarks appear to me to be authentic Chinese ones. Unfortunately they are on the reverse instead of in the open fields on the obverse where they wouldn't impact the price/value so much. Much of the obverse bust detail is missing, possibly from the hammering of the chopmarks onto the opposite side. The drill hole helps NOT at all. I'm a fan of chopmarks and very much like the history they add to a coin. I'm also a BIG fan of Capped Bust half dollars. But, this coin however, in my opinion, is ruined for its numismatic value by the application of the chopmarks and the drill hole. I, personally, wouldn't pay more than $40 for this coin.  |
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Valued Member
United States
426 Posts |
Ive never seen a half dollar with chopmarks before or a 4 reales (equivalent) for that matter which would be more likely considering the 8 Reales was the workhorse for the trade with the orient.
As far as I know all U.S. coinage of this period was for domestic circulation and output was low hence the vast amounts of foreign coinage that was passed as legal tender at this point in time in the states.
If that chopmark/coin is real it could get a premium with collectors of chopmarked coins.
Ill try to contact a user who frequents the world coin section because there are many users that collect chopmarked coins on that part of the forum but I'll try to contact one in particular and alert him to this thread in the hopes that he might know something about the possiblity of there being chops on a half dollar.
Edited by RealPeso
05/18/2011 10:48 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts |
CincoPicos Interesting coin, presents some interesting questions.
The US Half Dollar was not a "normal" trade coin BUT some did reach the orient and were chop marked. So it would be a rare item provided the chops are real.
The size of the Chop marks (LARGE) is a bit of a quandary since they are seen most often on LATE Republican 8R coins. The earlier coins were typically chopped with small chop marks. But I suppose the coin could have arrived in the orient when it was over 50 years old.
I also see in these chop marks a white build up which I have seen on forged chop marks before. I believe some forgers "fill" chop marks to obscure the view of the recesses of the mark. So I would examine the deepest part of the chop to see if the mark was made with a single punch or if it is composed of several separate straight line segment cuts.
Finally the damage to the obverse seems to be too extensive and was possibly there BEFORE the final two chops were added.
I would be suspicious that someone - who was aware of the rarity of Chops on Bust Halves - simply added a couple Chops to a damaged coin.
I am by nature suspicious - but in this case the chops should be definitely confirmed as legitimate before I would consider the purchase to be final.
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New Member
 Mexico
22 Posts |
Bob, thanks for you input. You are right about the damage on the face. Most of it is not a result of the chops on the other side. The only chop that lines up with face damage is the one above the eagle's wing which is the area next to star 3.
If you have a copy of Rose's book, you will see that all of his photos show large chops on early US minors. [pgs. 26-27]
The chops were made from a single punch and not in segments. The white seen at bottom of some areas occurs where the chop is the deepest. If you look at the chop beneath the eagle's wing, you will see that the compound portion shows dark at the bottom because it is not as deep as the straight part above it. Also look at the test drill on the face side. This is a fairly deep drill for a test and shows white at the bottom half only. I suspect that they were suspect of the damage on the front and wanted to check the silver. The white may be the result of some chemical or acid used to check the silver. The coin weighs 13.22 g and is within limits for the wear it shows.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts |
CincoPicos Thanks for confirming the existence of Large Chops on Bust minor coins. I did not dig out Rose's book so I did not recall that Bust Halves were so illustrated.
It is also helpful to know that the chops themselves were make with ONE stroke with full puncheons. I have seen many faked large chops (and small of course on Boston type fakes) but in a relatively few cases did the forger actually fabricate a proper punch. So I guess for us to presume an original we need to conclude that both "punches" are actually composite strikes made with two different punch elements.
The chop above the wing is clearly a double chop with the composite design cut in on an angle.
But I was particularly concerned about the compound chop below the Eagle's wing, it does look like more than one level but lined up as if it were a single figure. I always find that suspect.
In most cases, with coins I own, I have removed the "contents" of the chops just up to the point of proving that they are fakes. On some coins I have cleaned all the chops on the coin to insure they are all proper.
Chops were to my knowledge NEVER made with cutting surfaces at more than one level. I am always looking for FLAT BOTTOMS on the chops which tie all of the elements of the chop together at the bottom. This test can still be used on a tilted impression with little difficulty.
I have little doubt as to the authenticity of the coin itself. I did not locate an Overton number, but nothing about the coin itself says fake at all.
So we are left with the question of whether or not the chops add value to the coin.
I would - with no other facts forthcoming - value the coin as a damaged original. I would be very hesitant to add any significant value for chop marks that I still consider to be suspect.
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
17884 Posts |
I would think that the chops do add value, but on the other hand the extensive damage to the face which is unrelated to the chops would bring the value back down. The obv also seem to show some kind of extensive "repair" work on the field between the test drill and the area around star 3. (The damage at star 3 itself is the result of flattening caused by the chop on the other side. But it is not the cause of the field damage.) Unfortunately I would think this damage on the face and field results in a reduction in value greater than the increase created by the chops.
Edited by Conder101
05/19/2011 2:34 pm
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Valued Member
United States
426 Posts |
Thanks for coming over and commenting on this one swamperbob!
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Pillar of the Community
Mexico
1304 Posts |
No joke! I feel like I'm going to class each time he comments...and that's a GOOD thing!! Thank you!   |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
628 Posts |
This 1835 busty minus the chop is not worth much in its circulated condition. I'll bet the chop mark adds considerable value. How much? I don't know. I'd pay 2 or three times more for this coin than the same coin without the chop mark. Probably more.
Edited by m9frank
05/20/2011 03:31 am
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Replies: 10 / Views: 2,767 |
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Posted 05/18/2011 3:28 pm
