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 Replies: 15 / Views: 1,961 |
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
1551 Posts |
For the last year plus I have been looking at every 80 P,O and S mint coin I could find in an early die state. Early to me is defined by crisp squared denticals. I has been my belief that many more original dies used in 1880 where in fact 79 die's. It is just a matter of how well the mint worker re-worked and cleaned up the die or maybe the hub. The reasons to why I think this is true is this. On many of the 1880 year coins you fine a High second 8, one needs to ask Why? {the only reason I could come up with is to hide something} Second on almost all of them you will notice a crescent shape punch was used to re-punch the zero. Again one needs to ask Why again. From what I have found in the zero's with this type punch work is that on early die states you fine shallow remnants of something and overlay's seem to match a 9 as well as the upper left outside of the zero it seems that part of a top of a 9 is coming out a little as well On many of the 8's you also fine light remnants of what could be a 7 and again overlays match up fairly well. Anyway that is what I have been working on. Can someone shoot holes in my thinking. Really I would love to hear other theories! Here is one I am currently working on below.      Edited by twohawks
07/15/2011 01:13 am
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1143 Posts |
1880-S which is highly proof like (indicative of early strike) shows raised metal on the lower circles of both 8's. They are on the 10 and 2 position of both lower circles of the eight. I ended up putting a loupe on the slab so you could see but the images under a stereoscope make it quite easy to view. Hope this helps.   |
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
1551 Posts |
PL and DMPL coins are not always an EDS coin as the mint refreshed the dies though production. But you have the right idea. Any 1880 with a high second 8 I would love to look at. The toning on the one makes it hard to make anything out and the other is not close enough to see. Thanks for posting the picks that is what I am looking for.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3076 Posts |
I have at least one raised 8 and I'll check my others and shoot you some shots..
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Pillar of the Community
2224 Posts |
Twohawks: Here's a 80P with raised 8. I've VAM'd it 11a. I've got 2 S mm and 1 O raised also. Do you want those also?    |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1551 Posts |
The second 8 and 0 (zero). I am looking at any with a High 8, one that is set higher up from the denticals then the 1st 8 and zero.
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Moderator
 United States
23522 Posts |
If you were going to modify the date on a hub, how would you fill in the holes from the previous date? Conversely, if modifying a die, where would you come up with new metal to raise?
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New Member
United States
14 Posts |
Have you examined the stars? On my coin, some of the stars look to be affected by the double die as well as the date.
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New Member
United States
14 Posts |
On my coin, the 1 and the first 8 are more affected that the second 8. The 0 only has a small sliver at the bottom to show a double. The 1 and the first 8 are higher than the second 8 and the 0. The second 8 looks almost perfect. The stars to the left look like they may be affected, but then, it could also be my imagination.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1551 Posts |
I think that in the case that I am looking at it would be on the hub level Dave. I do not know if at that level they added metal via a weld in something like Nickle. One has to wonder as the 1880 O vam-21 has just a check mark in the second 8 and a light amount of spotting in the zero, and that is very hard to see if the angle is not right.
Was that a re-paired over-date die or from a hubbing die? At this date and time it is more what would make sence as there is no paper trail presay.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1143 Posts |
Twohawks, I have been busy and have not had time to retake some pic but will do so in the next day or two. Hopefully I can find a way to increase the magnification without losing resolution.
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Rest in Peace
United States
9104 Posts |
This is a wonderful example of the Interwebs allowing research at the speed of light.
You lost me at the title, tho. Wouldn't it be 1880 over 79?
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
10045 Posts |
I'm not an VAM guy, but I collect overdates and find this subject fascinating on any coin series. Quote:
I has been my belief that many more original dies used in 1880 where in fact 79 die's. It is just a matter of how well the mint worker re-worked and cleaned up the die or maybe the hub. Of course, Morgan dollars in 1879-80 would have the date punched directly into the die. As others noted, once that's done, there is only so much that polishing can do to remove the prior date. And, when a new date punch is applied to the die, that punch will sink remaining details of the prior date further into the die. This may be why overdates are more visible inside the "counters" (open spaces) of digits. The picture of the 1880/79-CC VAM 4 has pretty conclusive evidence of the prior date. I think some very subtle overdates have been determined from studying die pairs, but I've always asked myself "is the overdate a quick read?". If not, I try to find evidence on the coin to back up my claim.  |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1551 Posts |
 Sorry about that 79 over 80  Reverse that |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1143 Posts |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1551 Posts |
On to 2 that you just posted What are the chances of you sending them to me to look at, or buy them from you?
Russ
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Replies: 15 / Views: 1,961 |
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Posted 07/15/2011 10:57 am
