Should Lead Coins Give Off Bubbles In Lemon Juice?

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pat44 Valued Member Canada 96 Posts	Posted 11/19/2006 02:27 am Hello, I was trying to clean some of my coins ..islamic coins that is. I bought them few years ago but never cleaned them ..so now I was trying to clean these supposadly silver ottoman coins. I dropped the first one in lemon juice then I started to see tiny bubbles coming out of the coin then like half a hour later you cant seen the coin no more. It was in a large buble made up of tiny bubbles. I took it out cleaned with with a tooth brush ..and alot of the black dirt came out...but still there was this like gray color layer..still covering the supposadly silver beneath. I took a knife cut the side a bit to see what's under that layer...and what I saw looked like silver......Sooo my question should silver give off bubbles in lemon juice like that?..or is that the signature of lead ?(maybe fake..but I don't think so) Report this Post to the Staff

Sap Moderator Australia 16850 Posts	Posted 11/19/2006 07:39 am Easy way to find out... grab a piece of known silver (like a pre-1960's silver coin) and dunk it in the juice. [Switching to Mad Scientist mode.] In theory, the answer is yes. Any acid will react with metal to produce hydrogen gas and metal salt. However, I just asked my chemistry-lecturer father and he said that pure silver is too 'noble' a metal to produce much if any visible gassing with a mild organic acid like citric acid (the active ingredient in lemon juice). However, if you're "cleaning" the coin, then there's presumably something on the surface you're trying to clean off. If it's dirt, then you may be seeing a reaction between the acid and dirt, not acid and metal. Corrosion by-products are also more likely to react with acids than raw metal. Carbonates, for example, form carbon dioxide gas after soaking in acid. The other thing to consider is the purity of the silver. You said "Ottoman Coins" - these are notoriously low fineness to begin with, especially the later (modern) period. What date range are we talking about for these coins, or is it hard to tell while they're still dirty? You can test the effect of the acid on various silver finenesses by taking coins with known low-fineness (eg. Australian predecimal coins 1946-1964 and British predecimals 1921-1947 are 0.500 fine; Mexican pesos from the 1960's are down to .100 fine. Obviously, you'd prefer to do this with coins you didn't really want in your collection. [Normal Forum mode restored. We apologize for the inconvenience.] I'm still much more comforatable with the general rule "Never clean coins with acids, except as a last resort". Over on the FORVM forum, ammonia is given as an alternate cleaning agent for ancient silvers. Which one "works better" at cleaning your coin probably depends on what the stuff is you're trying to remove. Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis Report this Post to the Staff
pat44 Valued Member Canada 96 Posts	Posted 11/19/2006 2:23 pm It makes alot of sense sap. It could be the impurity that was behind the bubbles because I have cleaned many silver coins before..romans denarii..and antonianii with lemon juice..and had no problems. Another thing I picked up a islamic one of those I was cleaning then thought "I'm gonna try to bend it".."let's see what happened...i think it will bend a little...since it's thin"...but instead..the coin snaped like a twig..lol (it wasn't funny when it snapped)..luckly it didn't snap completly ..like half of it broke..the other half was kinda mal;iable and managed to straighen out..back in place...checkthe pics below. The first by the way is of another cleaning of what I think is menander..gold..but I thinkit's more in electrum then pure gold....but I'm not sure if it's genuine yet. The coin I bought it also few years ago and it was like completly black..except in few areas..which when I saw it..i knew right away that was gold..onthe reverse it's athena with shield....anyways...after the the juice bath...there was still some areas still covered with black ..so I thought..hey let's give it another lemon bath...and so I did..after the bath it develloped a pink layer..on most of the coin like you can see.....which I think because there is silver in the coin with the gold..which means it's a electrum coin. The same pink color appeared on another silver islamic coin which I cleaned and did not give bubbles.The silver seems tobe good quality like the roman silver. Also when that coin snapped you can see the inside..it was as if it was made of aluminum..that told me this is a very low grade silver. Is there a way to clean completly gold..bring back it's luster. I'mhaving trouble uploading images..i clickon browse..but nothing happens...I'm gonna try later uploading the pics Edited by pat44 11/19/2006 2:28 pm Report this Post to the Staff
pat44 Valued Member Canada 96 Posts	Posted 11/19/2006 10:45 pm Ok sap..here are the islamic and who I think is a menander electrum coin. Islamic1 : Image: islamic.jpg 17.26 KB Below is the one that broke..and still is in one piece..it's amazing. Islamic2: Image: islamic2.jpg 17.2 KB MenanderO: Image: menobv.jpg 17.04 KB MenanderRev: Image: menrev.jpg 16.42 KB Edited by pat44 11/19/2006 10:45 pm Report this Post to the Staff
Sap Moderator Australia 16850 Posts	Posted 11/20/2006 06:51 am I can't quite make out the mint or date on your first Islamic one, but it does look fairly modern in style. The second (cracked) one looks older than Ottoman - more like very early Islamic (either the Umayyad or Ayyubid Caliphates). I assume they're not two sides of the same coin? The cracking, rather than bending, could be caused by a combination of a "crust" of oxides etc on the surface and "crystallisation" of the silver. If that one is actually an Abbasid or Umayyad coin, then the silver should be quite good. I'd have to say, just judging by those pics, your "Menander gold" is neither. I don't think It's Menander or any later Bactrian ruler, because the reverse inscription on those is almost always in Karoshthi, an Indian script, and I can clearly see Greek/Latin lettering "TOV" on the reverse of that one. Also, Bactrian coins, like those of the other Hellenistic monarchies, tended not to place legends on the obverse. I can't tell what script it is, but I can see some lettering to the left of the portrait. You can't "bring back gold's colour" simply because gold's colour never goes away to start with. I don't think it's gold or any kind of gold alloy, because gold just doesn't discolour or corrode like that. If you're getting pink or golden colouring, depending on what you're using to clean it, then I'd suspect a bronze or brass coin. And probably not a bronze of Menander; most of those are square. So what is it, then? Based on what I can see, I'd guess a Roman Provincial, though the portrait looks a bit crude for Roman; the TOV on the reverse is part of the Greek word "ETOVC" (year), often found on Greek Imperial coinage. Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis Report this Post to the Staff
pat44 Valued Member Canada 96 Posts	Posted 11/21/2006 04:06 am The First is early ottoman"Sultan Ahmed of...something" and is not that modern , the date on it at the buttom below #1602;#1587;#1591;#1606;#1591;#1610;#1606;#1610;#1607;"Constantinople" mint is 1105 AH or 1694 AD.Second one is a Dirham of a umayyad caliph struck in probably Damasacus(syria) around 90 AH or 709 AD. Ohh..i forgot that silver crystalise over time...that must be it..that's why it broke. Well i'll be sure tomorrow(taking it to a jeweller/coin dealer) if it's a gold coin or not. I think it is gold..not pure gold though a alloy of gold and something else. The dark you see on it is from one of the very corrosive bath it took..Liquid Plumer Pro..used to unclog drains...very corrosive stuff. And yes I know gold..pure gold that is color never goes away it's one of the most inactive element. Nothing can affect it ...eccept some solvents like if you drop gold in a aqueous mixture containing various halogens such as clorides , bromides or iodites...then it will start to dissolve. It will also dissolve in a oxidizing mixtures of cyanide ion with oxygen and aqua regia ..which is a mixture of hydrochloric and nitric acids or nitrohydrochloric acid. So it's not a superman metal so to speak...it's a batman one(without Robin). And I don't know for sure if it's Menander...the obverse sure ressamble menander...but is it exactly him?..That I can't answer. Also what made me think it's menander is that on the reverse of his silver coins most if not all bare Athena standing holding shield in a defensive/ready to attack posture..just like on this coin...So I thought..he could have used the same reverse for his gold coins. Edited by pat44 11/21/2006 04:16 am Report this Post to the Staff
Sap Moderator Australia 16850 Posts	Posted 11/21/2006 07:00 am quote: Originally posted by pat44 The First is early ottoman"Sultan Ahmed of...something" and is not that modern , the date on it at the buttom below "Constantinople" mint is 1105 AH or 1694 AD. Technically, I consider anything struck after about 1450 as "modern"... ...but I concede your point. If you're curious, the coin is listed in the 1600's Krause (now that I know where to look! ) as KM#107, the half-kurus (unless its the larger 1 kurus, KM#110) of Ottoman Sultan Ahmed II (AH 1102 to 1106). All the coins for Ahmed II listed in Krause are dated 1102, with the "2" very deep, looking more like an upside-down letter "h". He's apparently one of the scarcer sultans; CV for both the half and 1 kurus is $100 in VG. Nice find! Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis Report this Post to the Staff
pat44 Valued Member Canada 96 Posts	Posted 11/21/2006 4:45 pm Nice !..thanks !...i think it's a half Kurus...I'm not sure. Cool...so you have the krause 1600...i have three world coin Karauses...the earlieast is of 1984 and goes back to..or start from like ottomans coins from around 1165 AH...i said nooo !..when I realised that I can't go back farther to see who rulled before . With me modern coins starts after the 1600. Report this Post to the Staff
pat44 Valued Member Canada 96 Posts	Posted 11/21/2006 5:06 pm Ohh..i forgot to mention also sap...that you were right about the other coin..it's pure copper...not gold...but man it suuuure look like gold. You should have seen it before I started cleaning it...boy ! He tested it with the acid tester..he rubbed it on a black special stone then dropped on it a drop of acid...then the filled particules..just vanished. If it was gold it wouldn't have vanished. CORRECTED : I meant it's a brass coin...sorry Edited by pat44 11/22/2006 02:04 am Report this Post to the Staff
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