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Found Coins...need Advice

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New Member

United States
6 Posts
 Posted 11/20/2006  7:19 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add grinch1989 to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
Hello Everyone, I have an interesting story about a coin find and need some advice. I recently purchased a new home from a son who's parents passed away some time ago. It needed lots of work, and that included finishing of the basement. During demo one day tucked behind some insulation there was a little sandwich bag with three coins inside it. My first reaction was like I just hit the lotto seeing the dates on the coins were very old, but after some research it seems they can be worth nothing. Can someone please steer me in the right direction. Should I take them to a coin shop? ebay them and see what happens? or am I just wasting my time?

Coin 1: 1889 Type O
Coin 2: 1889
Coin 3: 1899 Type O

Thanks a lot!

-Ray


http://www.coincommunity.com/forum/...247_015.jpg"]Found-Coins...need-Advice 015.jpg

http://www.coincommunity.com/forum/...328_008.jpg"]Found-Coins...need-Advice 008.jpg

http://www.coincommunity.com/forum/...341_012.jpg"]Found-Coins...need-Advice 012.jpg
Edited by grinch1989
11/20/2006 7:24 pm
New Member
United States
6 Posts
 Posted 11/20/2006  7:24 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add grinch1989 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Pictures fixed...sorry about that...newbie :)
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SsuperDdave's Avatar
United States
23522 Posts
 Posted 11/20/2006  7:40 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
My advice would be to enjoy them for their own significance, rather than attempt to profit. They're fairly well-worn, not worth much more than $10-15 each, and significant to you for their history. If they were mine (understanding I'm a Morgan collector), I'd encase them and mount them in the entryway of the house as good-luck pieces.

Before all that, though, could you post reverse pics like you did the obverse, to make sure there aren't any errors or special features of these coins? Your pictures are quite good for someone who obviously doesn't spend a lot of time photographing coins, so it will be easy to note anything interesting. The best of the three is the 1899, so duplicating that look would be the goal for any new pics.
New Member
United States
6 Posts
 Posted 11/20/2006  8:29 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add grinch1989 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks SuperDave. Your idea of mounting them as good luck pieces is great advice. I took the back side of each, let me know what you think.

Thanks again!

http://www.coincommunity.com/forum/...2_1889O.jpg"]Found-Coins...need-Advice 1889O.jpg

http://www.coincommunity.com/forum/...21_1889.jpg"]Found-Coins...need-Advice 1889.jpg

http://www.coincommunity.com/forum/...3_1899O.jpg"]Found-Coins...need-Advice 1899O.jpg
Valued Member
neuron's Avatar
United States
254 Posts
 Posted 11/20/2006  11:05 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add neuron to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Neat story, and great find! Let us know if you come across any more- I love those stories. :)

Regards,
~neuron
Pillar of the Community
USArmyParatrooper's Avatar
United States
1283 Posts
 Posted 11/21/2006  12:00 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add USArmyParatrooper to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
That is a great find! Even if they're not worth a significant amount, there's something about finding old coins that makes them mean more. I have a handfull of worthless wheatbacks that I found and kept. I would flip to find those morgans!
Edited by USArmyParatrooper
11/21/2006 12:29 am
New Member
United States
6 Posts
 Posted 11/21/2006  06:39 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add grinch1989 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It is a great story, but with every piece of sheetrock that covered that insulation I wondered, what else could be hiding behind there? I checked as best I could, but didn't find anything else, but I do have a large insulated attic to tear apart if I am bored one day :) Anyone want to help dig up the yard in the spring?

Thanks again guys!
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neuron's Avatar
United States
254 Posts
 Posted 11/21/2006  10:25 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add neuron to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
If you're near Milwaukee, I'll help you dig.
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SsuperDdave's Avatar
United States
23522 Posts
 Posted 11/21/2006  3:58 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
OK, before I mention what I noticed, here's a short lesson in basic Morgan die production:

The coin's original design devices are created, larger than life, in a wax model. This model includes only Liberty and the eagle - stars, letters, date and mintmarks come later. This wax model was then covered in Plaster of Paris to create a negative cast. The plaster cast was refinished/retouched as necessary, and then a Plaster of Paris positive was made from it. This second plaster casting had the exact look of a finished coin, after it was detailed to fix anything lost in the casting process. It was much easier to achieve the desired look of the coin with a positive cast, just like the coin was supposed to look, rather than a negative casting, which is why this extra step was undertaken.

Then a second negative casting was made from the positive just created. After any necessary sharpening and detailing, this negative was dipped in hot beeswax and then coated with copper powder. A series of electroplating steps were then undertaken, alternating layers of copper and nickel until a thickness of 1/16" was achieved. This model was then detailed and sharpened, backed with lead and separated from the plaster, becoming a metal positive of the coin, called a Galvano Plate.

This final metal model became the template which was used, with a reducing lathe, to create the master hub of the coin. The reducing lathe utilized a metal point to trace the surface, which would have damaged a plaster cast - hence, the effort to produce a hard metal model.

A quick aside - you will hear the terms "hub" and "die" used concerning the minting process. Just remember that all hubs are positives, and all dies are negative - it makes things easier to visualize.

So, the reducing lathe traces the Galvano Plate, in small concentric circles. As the first point traces the Galvano Plate, a second, much stronger point, is carving the same detail at the exact size of the coin into what is called the Master Hub, a cylindrical piece of steel softened by annealing. Now, this isn't an exact science, so the master hub is not intended to be carved in perfect detail. The lathe operator, an extremely skilled machinist, needs to understand perfectly what should be carved into the hub, and what can be detailed into the hub later.

Once created, the master hub (a positive, remember) is detailed to the final look of the desired coin, and then hardened to the greatest extent they were able to at the time. This master hub is then used, in a press, to create a Master Die (remember, a negative), another cylinder of steel, again softened by annealing.

Now you have the Master Die, a perfect negative of the coin. This is where the stars and lettering were added to the coin, each punched in by hand, individually. Although the work was checked very carefully, errors sometimes crept through. Some Morgan dollar errors involve individual doubled letters or stars, and this step is likely when that error happened.

The Master Die was then hardened and used to make Working Hubs, which were then used to create Working Dies. The Working Die is the actual die which is used in the press to strike coins. Each working hub was capable of creating up to 250 Working Dies, which were then shipped out to the individual mints. If you understand that each Working Die was used to strike as many as 200,000 coins (average of the Philadelphia mint), you can see that a large number of working dies were needed.

It is these Working Dies into which each mint punched the date and mintmark of the individual year they were minting. Thus, you can see how the original design, hubs and dies could be used down through the years of Morgan dollar mintage.

You will hear the term VAM bandied about concerning Morgans. This is an acronym for Leroy Van Allen and A. George Mallis, two collectors who originally researched these coins, and published the list of die variants we use to differentiate the various die states and errors of Morgan dollars. These are called VAM's, and every Morgan dollar minted has a VAM number assigned to it. Although Mr. Mallis has passed away, Leroy Van Allen is still to this day identifying new Morgan dollar varieties, and is the person to whom you would send a new variant for confirmation.

Two avid collectors by the name of Dr. Michael Fey and Jeff Oxman produced a book called The Top 100 Morgan dollar Varieties: The VAM Keys which listed the most unusual and popular VAM's. This has become the standard reference for the most important Morgan VAM's. Not all Top 100 Morgans are particularly rare, but all of them enjoy greater attention from collectors, and most are worth more than other VAM's of the same year and mint.

And this brings me to what I found on your 1899-O Morgan. For just a few of their Working Dies, the New Orleans mint used a smaller mintmark punch than normal. The resulting minted coins are referred to as Micro O variants, and I believe yours is one. The 1899-O Micro O Morgans are Top 100 VAM's.

Do you have a magnifier or loupe? You need to get a closer look at the mintmark on your 1899. Go here to help identify the particular VAM:

http://vamworld.wikispaces.com/1899+Micro+O+Guide

There are 5 different Micro O VAM's, each Top 100 coins. The condition of your coin keeps it from being of any significant value, Micro O's not being very rare coins, but I thought that as a newcomer to the collecting world you'd enjoy finding something like this in your first batch of coins posted for public approval.
New Member
United States
6 Posts
 Posted 11/21/2006  10:02 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add grinch1989 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks a lot SuperDave for taking the time to explain all that stuff. All this is making me want to start collecting coins!! Great stuff! Anyways, it looks like the coin is a VAM-6, which seems to be the most common Micro-O correct? The coin does seem to be in better shape then some on ebay, what would you rate the coin?
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SsuperDdave's Avatar
United States
23522 Posts
 Posted 11/22/2006  2:55 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by grinch1989

Thanks a lot SuperDave for taking the time to explain all that stuff. All this is making me want to start collecting coins!! Great stuff! Anyways, it looks like the coin is a VAM-6, which seems to be the most common Micro-O correct? The coin does seem to be in better shape then some on ebay, what would you rate the coin?



The whole point here is to make you want to start collecting coins.

Grading this coin is tough. First, you need to know that grading from photographs is an estimate only, because it's really tough to properly picture the luster of the coin, and wear can hide itself within even the best photos.

That said, your 1899-O is an odd one, much more worn on the obverse than the reverse. New Orleans Morgans were notorious for weak strikes, and sometimes dies wore out at different rates, so an old obverse could be mated with a new reverse die. I think that describes your example - the reverse looks AU, but the obverse is borderline VF-EF.

I'd call it VF35, with regret, because the obverse is probably AU50, but the lower face determines the grade.

Edit: The obverse has hints that it is a better strike than it might seem. That's why I graded it so low, but I have to wonder why the two faces wore at such different rates.
Edited by SsuperDdave
11/22/2006 3:02 pm
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oinkjackson's Avatar
United States
17 Posts
 Posted 11/22/2006  8:53 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add oinkjackson to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
wow! cool article..very interesting..thx.
New Member
United States
6 Posts
 Posted 11/26/2006  10:22 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add grinch1989 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks again SuperDave. Can anyone recommend a nice, cheap frame/mounting system for these three coins? As per SuperDave's suggestion I plan to hang these up somewhere. :)
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thekidcollector's Avatar
Kuwait
1523 Posts
 Posted 11/27/2006  01:24 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add thekidcollector to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I loove stories like this!
Hope you stick to the hobby of breaking down your house for coins and hopefully start collectng them!

TKC!
Rest in Peace
Gary Burke's Avatar
United States
3730 Posts
 Posted 11/27/2006  03:19 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Gary Burke to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
grinch1989, Good story. I have found a few old "historical" items, but have never found old coins squirreled away.

Hope you become a coin collector.
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