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US Solves Credit Rating Problem

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Pillar of the Community
Ed_B's Avatar
United States
4008 Posts
 Posted 08/28/2011  2:48 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Ed_B to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
So what's different this time? Nothing, really, other than those occupying power in Washington. Well, we can fix that in a little over a year.

What's different this time, he says. Well, for starters, how about a $15T debt that will likely go to $21T before the end of 2012? How about a government that borrows $0.40 of every dollar it spends and is now paying $400B a year in interest costs at the lowest interest rates in living memory? How about an extremely weak US dollar that is being printed to extinction? How about a REAL unemployment rate of 18%? How about huge financial problems in both Japan and Europe? How about serious talk around the world about replacing the US dollar as the world's reserve currency? That happened to Britain and it could happen to us too.

Things are much worse today than they were back in the 1980s... and the things that have gotten worse since then are still trending lower, not higher. Yes, things could turn around. It is possible and I hope that they will. The question is, "Will they?" and not "Can they?". Do you really want to bet your family's future on the competence and ability of the US government to solve these problems successfully? I do not and my post was a statement to that effect.

The bottom line, as I see it, is to be prepared for a potential financial disaster is a lot smarter than not being prepared for it. Storing food and water is a no brainer, yet many people do not do it. Stores typically have a 3-4 day supply of food at any given time. Anything that interrupts that supply for more than a week will generate real hardship for those who are not prepared and there is no guarantee that the food supply will be fixed after a single week. Does anyone on here want to be these people? Not me and not my family.

Finally, there is very little to being prepared for financial disaster that cannot be undone. Stored food and water will be consumed regardless of what happens in the world. Buying today means that we avoid some of tomorrow's higher prices... and food prices ARE rising. Anything else that is purchased can also be sold. Yes, we might or might not lose some money on them but so what? People buy insurance all the time and then are very happy that they didn't need it. Is this so different?

Pillar of the Community
poboxw's Avatar
Canada
1502 Posts
 Posted 08/28/2011  6:46 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add poboxw to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
So what's different this time? Nothing...

I don't buy the "we've seen this before" theory either. We often forget the problems we face today are decades longer in the making than the 50-60 years of history we use to predict what's to come. And, that's not taking into account that the layers in complexity/dependence that we've built onto the system. What made the poker card tower unstable the first few stories up is not the same as what will tip the cards over at the top of the pyramid.


Quote:
People buy insurance all the time and then are very happy that they didn't need it. Is this so different?

The difference IMO is that there are the hardcore doom-sayers that pour every available penny into PMs + food stores and what not, and also those that either do nothing or buy 10 oz in PM + a case of water/protein bars and think that they're prepared for anything. What's difficult is striking that balance of being covered however the world events shift.
Edited by poboxw
08/28/2011 6:49 pm
Valued Member
Wei Fun's Avatar
United States
244 Posts
 Posted 08/29/2011  12:22 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Wei Fun to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Things are much worse today than they were back in the 1980s.


Things seem worse now because the past is always viewed through rose-colored lenses. But unemployment peaked higher in 1982 (at 10.8%) that it did in this recent recession. Inflation was certainly higher, reaching over 13%. Despite the severe recession, that inflation meant the fed had zero leeway for monetary stimulus.

Granted, you could say that the 1980 recession was shorter-lasting, but that was a result of correct and timely policy action, the only reason things are still weak now is that Washington has done everything in its power to hamstring business instead of to support it. Should we change course policy-wise, there's no reason to believe we wouldn't see similar results to what we did starting in 1983.



Quote:
Well, for starters, how about a $15T debt that will likely go to $21T before the end of 2012?


Not all debt is created equal. The $15T number includes interagency debt which represents nothing more than a promise to pay current retirees social security. Since we're going to do that anyway, we should really consider public debt, which is only $10T. Yes, that sounds like a lot, but it's still well under 100% GDP. In other words, although it's concerning, it's not yet cause for panic. And no credible agency has estimated an increase in $6T of debt between now and 16 months from now. Yes, we will add to our debt, but likely by some $1-$2T, still leaving us under 100% Debt/GDP. Again, cause for concern, but not for despair. Canada went through an austerity programme a few years ago, and they're none the worse for it.

Pillar of the Community
Ed_B's Avatar
United States
4008 Posts
 Posted 08/29/2011  5:51 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Ed_B to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Things seem worse now because the past is always viewed through rose-colored lenses.

Those of us who were adults back in the 1980s remember those days quite well and have no rose tinting on our glasses.


Quote:
But unemployment peaked higher in 1982 (at 10.8%) that it did in this recent recession. Inflation was certainly higher, reaching over 13%.

Those are not an apples to apples comparison. The government and the Fed are now using different ways to calculate their inflation and unemployment numbers. They are, in fact, cooking the books to make them and their policies look better than the facts actually show. REAL inflation, for example, is now about 10% and not the fake number of 2.5-3% that they keep tossing around. Same for unemployment. The REAL unemployment rate is around 17%, not 9%. These things used to be calculated in one way but are now calculated in a different way that are not comparable. Check out the shadowstats web site sometime. Some of it is for subscribers only but there is still quite a bit that can be read by anyone. Their financial analyses are some of the best I have seen. They are very thorough, clear, and concise.


Quote:
Should we change course policy-wise, there's no reason to believe we wouldn't see similar results to what we did starting in 1983.

Agreed. I just don't happen to think that such a change will occur to the extent necessary or with the speed needed to satisfactorily resolve these issues. If you do, that's fine... but don't bet the farm on it.

Having a public debt that is anywhere near 100% of GDP is insane, IMHO, regardless of what kind of debt is involved.


Quote:
And no credible agency has estimated an increase in $6T of debt between now and 16 months from now.

No credible agency saw the bursting of the tech stock bubble, the housing bubble, the sub-prime mortgage mess, or the collapse of Bear Sterns and Lehman Bros. either... but they all happened anyway. Watch and learn. We'll see how this all works out and who is in what shape then. Do take some steps to protect yourself physically and financially, however. Even under the best of scenarios, the government is NOT going to do that for us. Not that they should but some will assume that they will right up to the point where it finally becomes obvious to them that it just isn't happening.


Quote:
Again, cause for concern, but not for despair.

No despair here, either. But there is some serious concern that IS being addressed by personal action. Those who prefer inaction in the name of everything being fine and not worrying about the situation can certainly do that... but I don't recommend it.
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