ICCS Vs PCGS Canadian Coin Valuations

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Author	Replies: 5 / Views: 5,826
canadian-varieties Pillar of the Community Canada 1442 Posts	Posted 09/07/2011 02:58 am Buyers seem to value PCGS slabbed coins at 30-50% discount off its equally graded ICCS counterpart. As I've submitted close to 40 ICCS coins to PCGS (Victorian series, Canada and NFLD), I thought I'd share my experience . Based on my experience (disclaimer: experiences may vary ), ~ 25% of ICCS coins (deemed ok by ICCS with no comments on flip), are damaged by PCGS standards (cleaned, PVC residue, scratched), and will not be slabbed. These are happily sold by major Canadian dealers (cough will not mention names cough). ~ 50% of ICCS coins will grade within 5 points (most will grade higher, a few same, and a couple below ICCS grade). ICCS EF40 usually gets PCGS EF45, ICCS EF45 = PCGS AU50, etc...however ICCS AU-MS may be downgraded by PCGS, but I have few of these.. ~ 25% of ICCS coins will graded 10-20 points higher, most being in the 10 points category, and if you're lucky, a couple will sneak a 20 point leap. My guess, from a 1986 ICCS flip only . Now, its clear that buyers are considering ONLY the last category, when deciding between PCGS and ICCS coin value. They seem to completely ignore the 25% of ICCS coins that are damaged = instant 50-90% value loss. Now, I'm no mathematician , but if there is a 25% chance PCGS overgraded the coin by 10-20 points, and a 25% chance that ICCS slabbed a damaged coin worth 50-90% less, that just about balances out over the long term. Furthermore, ICCS has neither the international recognition, nor respect, nor quality of holder. PCGS opens up your coins to any customer in the world. So unless you can examine each coin under the microscope before you buy it (yes, yes, buy the coin, not the holder, blah, blah, cough unrealistic cough)...an ICCS coin and an equally graded PCGS coin represent equivalent value over long term (i.e. 25% of your ICCS coins are damaged and worthless, but 25% of your PCGS coins are overgraded)... So it would seem, that buyers paying 30-50% more for ICCS graded coins, are losing that amount, over the long term. However, as long as the coin sits in its fragile ICCS flip, the collector is likely blissfully oblivious to this. Report this Post to the Staff

SPP-Ottawa Moderator Canada 10460 Posts	Posted 09/07/2011 10:59 am I think you are making some dangerous assumptions, especially about collectors. Most collectors I know who collect higher end coins, are very meticulous when it comes to eye-appeal, lustre and other attributes beside the technical grade. I can probably count on one hand, the number of collectors who buy higher end ICCS coins sight unseen (one of them who lives in Yellowknife, the other in Iqaluit - geography has handcuffed them). Why do you say it is unrealistic? Bear in mind that I am excluding those who cherry-pick unattributed varieties. If one spots a good variety, unattributed in any TPG holder, of course you buy the coin sight unseen - usually the grade is irrelevant to the variety hunter. 25% is an extraordinary reject volume from PCGS. Did you send in a random batch still in their ICCS flips? Did you examine and grade the coins yourself, deciding first which ones to send in? In 3 years of sending coins to PCGS, I have only ever had two body-bagged, and one was an error coin. Quote: Now, I'm no mathematician... You don't need to be one, your sample set is completely inadequate for any kind of statistical analysis... but hey it makes a great story - have you thought of politics? "Discovery follows discovery, each both raising and answering questions, each ending a long search, and each providing the new instruments for a new search." -- J. Robert Oppenheimer Content of this post is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 3.0 Unported License. See: http://creativecommons.org/licenses...0/deed.en_US My eBay store Edited by SPP-Ottawa 09/07/2011 11:09 am Report this Post to the Staff
canadian-varieties Pillar of the Community Canada 1442 Posts	Posted 09/07/2011 11:57 am The ICCS coins were taken out of their flips before being sent into PCGS. Yes, 25% is extraordinarily high. I tried to send a random batch, but held a few back that I knew had no chance of passing. So that number is probably an underestimate. The coins that failed had been cleaned and retoned. The toning looked quite natural, so it must have been done with the coin sitting on a window sill over 1-2 years. The fields were still a bit shiny and the toning was sometimes a bit uneven at the edges. "inadequate for any kind of statistical analysis" - well obviously. I clearly stated this was my experience only. And if you can spend $1000-$2000 to make a trip every time you buy a coin so you can examine it "in hand", that's fantastic and I'm happy for you :). And no, I do not live in Yellowknife. This is a fantastic story. "Top Canadian grading company (ICCS) will slab all sorts of cleaned, scratched and damaged coins with no comment on the holder." Guess where I'm sending my next batch of damaged coins to be graded. Report this Post to the Staff
canadian-varieties Pillar of the Community Canada 1442 Posts	Posted 09/07/2011 11:59 am I would also add that most collectors probably do have to travel long distances to see coins "in hand", which is why its so important to have a trustworthy TPG. Edited by canadian-varieties 09/07/2011 12:01 pm Report this Post to the Staff
SPP-Ottawa Moderator Canada 10460 Posts	Posted 09/07/2011 12:31 pm Quote: Guess where I'm sending my next batch of damaged coins to be graded. Aside from authenticity on a handful of very key dates (given the Chinese counterfeit that are out there), why would you bother sending damaged coins to be graded? Do you want to fool a new or young collector into buying something that it is not? I realize that it is the responsibility of the collector to make wise buying decisions Caveat emptor, and some only buy coins for investment and can't be bothered to learn how to grade Ars longa, vita brevis, but a comment like that only pours gasoline on the fire, Ad absurdum. "Discovery follows discovery, each both raising and answering questions, each ending a long search, and each providing the new instruments for a new search." -- J. Robert Oppenheimer Content of this post is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 3.0 Unported License. See: http://creativecommons.org/licenses...0/deed.en_US My eBay store Report this Post to the Staff
Susanlynn9 Forum Mom United States 5877 Posts	Posted 09/08/2011 09:43 am I am sure that the OP is just making a facetious comment and has no intention of actually duping anyone into purchasing a damaged coin but sending it to a TPG and having it graded as original. Also, this topic is a prime example of why the caveat "Buy the coin, not the slab" is so important. Report this Post to the Staff
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