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" Counterfeit " 1860 Gold 100 Reales.

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Pillar of the Community
United States
1757 Posts
 Posted 10/28/2014  7:13 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add colonialjohn to your friends list
Another thing about XRF. Having analyzed over 5,000 coins with XRF from all U.S. and World types and having a world contemporary XRF reference coin collection of about 200 World pieces from 1500-1800 I can say when you shoot with a XRF gun or lab bench higher end model look at ALL the elements. As an example here with gold coming from a 19thC source if the mint is from South American particularly from a South American Mint gold coins will have trace platinum and or palladium. Unquestionably for Spanish Mint coins. This is why they used platinum as the debased worthless alloy in the 19thC. It was worhless in the 19thC.
In your case gold should have lead, copper and silver >1% due to the cupellation process not being able to extract lead and silver efficiently in this time period and maybe platinum and palladium in trace (<1.0 %).
The real observation is what the other 10% says in the assay. We try to stress this in the GNL book with regal 8R and the 0.2% gold signature. If you see an order of magnitude less of gold (i.e., <0.02% Au) in ANY regal 16th to 19thC Reale please proceed from pessimism to optimism. This hurts because you saw the 90% Au and everything was KOOL. Its the OTHER 10%. Ok ... you get my point. If you XRF shoot it again post the assay here just as FYI ...

JPL
Edited by colonialjohn
10/28/2014 7:14 pm
Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
701 Posts
 Posted 10/28/2014  8:16 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tenbobbit to your friends list
Good evening John, thank you for the excellent information.
Do you think PCGS would provide this data if I asked them for it ? The lady that e-mailed me did confirm it was gold with allowances, I will message her in the morning with a request.
Many thanks again John for sharing your knowledge, I have learnt more in the last couple of days than the last couple of years.
I will post the results from PCGS as soon as they come in.
Valued Member
United States
262 Posts
 Posted 10/30/2014  2:32 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add PatAR to your friends list
Edges don't lead me to any certain conclusion about origin.

Thank you so much for sharing this coin with us. Would you mind if I incorporate these photos into my book on Isabel II?

Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
701 Posts
 Posted 10/30/2014  4:00 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tenbobbit to your friends list
Good evening PatAR,
You are welcome to use the photo's and data ( when PCGS get back to me )
I will do my best to take some better pics for you when I get the chance.
Nice to be able to contribute with my 1st post,
Sadly not in the way I expected.
Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
701 Posts
 Posted 11/05/2014  08:09 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tenbobbit to your friends list
Still waiting for the data from PCGS, just sent them a reminder.
I appreciate that they are a busy company, but how hard is it to send an e-mail !
Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
701 Posts
 Posted 11/13/2014  10:29 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tenbobbit to your friends list
Finally received a reply back from PCGS today.
Basically put the only test carried out on this coin was a visual one.
The e-mail was very dismissive towards my request for the xrf results & all other data regarding the coin.
In no way are they willing to assist me with any written proof, I now have to " go it alone " when taking the coin back.
I have agreed with their " counterfeit " opinion but that " opinion " isn't worth s@+t if the person I bought it from disagrees with it.
Quality company
That said I will get it tested myself, probably next week when I have the time.
Pillar of the Community
United States
1757 Posts
 Posted 11/13/2014  10:55 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add colonialjohn to your friends list
In your collection if have another of this type or from the real time period and not a modern fake - for example - just comparing this PCGS rejection piece to a known legitimate regal standard of the period. Then comparing the side by side assays.

Just a thought.

JPL
Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
701 Posts
 Posted 11/13/2014  11:31 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tenbobbit to your friends list
Hi John, I sadly don't have another as this was a random purchase.
I was hoping that PatAR would be able to make use of the data as he appears keen for me to get it for his book, hopefully when I get the data for him he will be kind enough to share with us how it differs.
Still fuming with PCGS.
Pillar of the Community
United States
1757 Posts
 Posted 11/13/2014  11:44 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add colonialjohn to your friends list
From my experience their should be some unusual metals in low quantities of course in the alloy mix.

So for now - just report. For example with modern Ag Chinese fakes I have seen Fe/Ni, German Silver (Cu/Zn/Ni) and low silver with brass (Cu/Zn). For 90% silver fakes sometimes you may see metals like aluminum, cadmium, chromium and other odd-balls or 20thC type metal contaminants.

So just report the full assay here.
Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
701 Posts
 Posted 11/20/2014  4:06 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tenbobbit to your friends list
Hi John, I have had the coin xrf tested but not yet sent it off for lab testing. Here are the basic numbers,
Au - 84.94 0.69
Ag - 1.50 0.16
Cm - 13.55 0.45

I didn't take it myself due to lack of time so a friend took it and messaged me a picture of the read out.
the 3rd element was hard to make out on my rubbish phone, either Cn or Cm so I went for Cm.
Valued Member
United States
262 Posts
 Posted 11/20/2014  5:14 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add PatAR to your friends list
I believe that last element might be Cu (copper).

I look forward to others insights on what that composition suggests about origin.

For what it's worth PCGS (or any third party grader) rarely provides such details. That's outside the scope of the offered service. They generally just list the item as "questionable authenticity" and return it. The fact that they committed to "counterfeit" for yours is notable. A reputable dealer would almost certainly refund your money based on the written PCGS return slip you have. (barring special circumstances - such as an as-is no return auction lot)


Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
701 Posts
 Posted 11/20/2014  7:35 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tenbobbit to your friends list
Your right PatAR, the 3rd 1 is Cu.
I am assuming this must have been made long before the explosion in the price of gold, it comes out at around 20.5ct which surely would make the process too expensive even taking into account the collector value. Plus it seems to be the only one known, very confusing.
I do understand what you are saying about pcgs and yes the fact they called it " counterfeit " is a little odd.
Two of the e-mails I have from pcgs state as a fact that the coin is gold which led me to believe that they must have done tests to determine this but apparently there is no data to back this up
The mystery continues.
Pillar of the Community
United States
1757 Posts
 Posted 11/20/2014  8:58 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add colonialjohn to your friends list
See:

http://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces44685.html

It seems the gold is low and it was debased with copper. We should see Au (90%), Cu (1-2%), Balance silver (6-8%) with maybe iron (~1%). What is the weight in comparison to this web linked information. If low this confirms the high Cu level. For South American Mints platinum enters the picture - of course).

This is a well made modern forgery IMO - as we also suggested on its awkward eye and hair details. Still if you can get a more fuller assay but this is what I would suspect from a $10,000 XRF gun these three metals: Au, Ag & Cu but with the Cu & Ag levels flip-flopped - reduced proportionally with Au at 90%.

JPL
Edited by colonialjohn
11/20/2014 9:25 pm
Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
701 Posts
 Posted 11/21/2014  5:48 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tenbobbit to your friends list
Good evening John,
Would this indicate a very modern i.e 21st century or a little earlier ?
You will have to bare with me for the next test, probably after xmas.
I was also wondering what your opinions are of me returning the coin or scrapping/destroying it. I am pretty sure it will pop up somewhere else in the country if I do return it, unless he destroys it in front of me which I seriously doubt would happen.
Thx.
Pillar of the Community
United States
1757 Posts
 Posted 11/21/2014  9:14 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add colonialjohn to your friends list
I would return it for a full refund withe counterfeit tag and XRF analysis. Its almost 90% Au - I am not sure what your loss would be that severe? I own modern forgeries for study, I own contemporary counterfeits because they are more exciting than regals and I own regals solely for their history ... each type has a purpose ... IMO.

But only you can answer that question ... it seems the XRF registered high copper is synonymous with the slightly low weight you mentioned previously.

JPL
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