Looks Like I Found Another Fake...1909 S VDB...

It actually looks legit, but it's been cleaned and the area around the MM makes is very suspicious.

This is a Bricks and mortar coin shop, and has been in business for a long time (I have no association with them, or any dealings with them) It would in my opinion be a foolish thing for them to sell a fake coin.

I do not know their reputation as dealers, but if you have been in business for that long, you normally do not skirt the edges of business ethics.

If this is a legit coin, what do you think it is really worth?

I've never had nor seen one of these, but I like analyzing images I guess. Left is the OP coin, right is an MS65 Red example from Heritage. Both mint marks have the appearance of being in a depression, and some of the "tool marks" radiating southeast from the S look exactly the same. I can't believe anyone could "move metal" so precisely, but I learn something new every day.



Edit: Sorry, I can't help myself. Below is another Heritage coin. Notice how the two striations running northwest from the lower serif of the S are duplicated on the OP coin, and the line running southeast from the upper right serif is evident on all three coins.

To a non-knowledgeable non-numismatist, those aren't tool marks, they're die markers. I'm curious how somebody could tool a new mintmark and have all the tool marks run NW to SE, and also get the little details correct like the little nub on the top right serif, and the two little blobs of metal above and below the middle of the S. We're all paranoid about fakes these days, but I think the seller got a bad deal on this forum because of it. I found a dozen more images like this on Heritage in the first five pages of search results out of about 2,000 1909 S VDB coins, so I'm sure there are more. These are mostly MS65 and the OP's coin is well worn. Hopefully the seller got what they wanted out of it (listing ended), because this thread was not fair to them.

Auction coin:

Auction coin highlighting common elements:

MS65 examples:

I don't want to beat a dead horse and I really respect the experience etc you bring to this forum SsDd. It was educational for me to investigate. I'm just hoping it might be a lesson to others to not jump to conclusions, and investigate instead. As far as your points, look at the images posted. The last and third to last are both coins with an obvious depression, and these coins are MS65. The OP's coin despite wear and who knows what cleanings etc still shows striations radiating out from the 9, and the NW-SE "striation" inside the 0 is the same in every subsequent image. Explain how anyone is going to "tool" a perfect S mintmark in exactly the right location, out of metal on the surface of a coin, while simultaneously duplicating the NW to SE "toolmarks" seen on dozens of other examples. We on this forum say "buy the coin not the slab", and then when it's not in a slab, we call it a fake. I object to that. Take some time to really investigate before you crucify somebody's coin.

A lesson I need to take myself. This is a case where you're very likely right, and me very likely wrong, but I remain unconvinced.

You motivated me to go look at a bunch of other examples in the VF range. All were in slabs (Heritage archives). Some seemed to have this depression around the MM; many (most) did not and none of those which did showed that depression in similar size, or as clearly, as the coin being discussed here.

Sometimes you can't drill down so deeply; you have to look at the whole surface of the coin in context. The things I object to are clearest in the seller's full-face images, which are pretty darn good and a rough size match for Heritage imaging so the comparison is valid. Looked at that way, this coin here is in a different league than the ones I looked at.

I cast no aspersions whatsoever on the seller. He's a prominent dealer in the area where I went to High School; I'm actually predisposed to favor him.

So, let's look at it from a slightly different perspective: What would cause that depression in normal Mint operations?

For the record, I looked at an equal number of 1909-S with no VDB. That issue is still a $100 coin in slabbed VF, so there are plenty of them at Heritage.

None of those which I looked at had this depression. At least, none looked at in the full image, in which it figures so prominently in the OP coin.

I'm forced to think that maybe there are more added MM's than we think, and maybe there are quite a few of them in slabs. You and I would know exactly where the MM should be, and what it would look like, if we were going to add one. Don't give the counterfeiters credit for less knowledge.

Each of those 4 mint mark placements should indicate a single unique obverse die. 4 is all it took to strike them all, and if their production went smoothly they could have done 484,000 with 2 dies.

That die chip just sent me on a mission that - to my standards - proved me wrong. Let me get some images and words together and I'll show you what I found.

I'd just stay away from all 1909 S VDB's altogether. Frees up $1000 and saves me the worry of buying a counterfeit.