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Question About A Peruvian 1933 Silver Crown (Un Sol)

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Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts
 Posted 02/27/2017  03:05 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list
We have employed SEM (Scanning Electron Microscopy) with good levels of success, but AAS (Atomic Absorption Spectrography) involves vaporization of the material to be tested. The key requirement of any test involving a coin is that the test is as non-destructive as possible.

The newest generation XRF which can produce results of 1 ppm (0.0001%) for some elements requires a very long exposure (60 minutes) to a high power focused X-ray beam. The expectation is that some damage to the surface of most coins (discoloration) will occur. However when dealing with already damaged coins, particularly counterfeits, it may be possible to focus on a damaged area (edge cut, hole or deep wide scratch) and avoid adding any significant new damage.

I have not yet tried the 1 ppm test because of the high cost (upwards of $500). The same apparatus can be used with a shorter test interval - one minutes safely. I have tested many coins using this method and results of 20 ppm are achieved.

It is my hope that as newer models of XRF are developed that power reductions will allow 1 ppm tests to be performed without damage or that costs will come down to a point where I can afford the test.
Pillar of the Community
United States
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 Posted 03/23/2017  12:04 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list
Since I last wrote, I took all 29 examples of 50% silver Sols to the ANA show and discussed them with NGC,ANACS and ICG grading services.

PCGS never did have time to talk to me.

ICG was by far the most willing to discuss the coins at length and to discuss what they might be.

The sum of the results was that from 3 to 10 of the 29 coins were actually genuine. The others were either classified as counterfeit outright (from 12-18) or they were not able to make a decision (from 7-12). All of the magnetic coins were called counterfeit based on 2 or 3 different opinions. I did not tell the people at the grading companies my opinion of the coins beforehand or what the tests results were. I used new flips to house each coin when I showed them.

The 1933 magnetic coins were all classed as counterfeit as were the other magnetic examples. This was done based on surface characteristics. Most graders did not use microscopes. None checked the weight or magnetism. The non-magnetic example of the 1933 which was called a "no opinion" or genuine shares one die with the magnetic type which was condemned as a fake by all examiners. I also classify it as a forgery. In my opinion, the fact that there are several different dies used to make the 1933 coins tends to suggest that a large emission of fake 1933 sols is or was produced at some time.

Before going to the ANA show I did Specific Gravity tests of all the 29 coins using a 4 beam balance Ohaus-111g scale capable of accuracy 2 two significant figures. You really need to use an analytical balance to directly weight to 0.001 gram. In all but ONE case the result was 9.5 or 9.6. The results were very consistent in that respect but magnetism varied and was unrelated to Specific Gravity. The mathematical average before rounding was 9.53. One more scarce variety of 1/2 sol had a specific gravity of 9.4. That coin was a rather blatant counterfeit that the seller insisted had been in his possession since 1965.

The possibility that some of the counterfeits dates to 1965 is quite possible. At that time all of the 50% silver sols were very common and there were no collectors for the series. They were however being bought up in large numbers because they contained silver. This means that there was a profit to be made by creating a low or no silver coin to mix in with genuine silver bullion coins. No one would have paid attention.

The XRF tests produced rather odd results. Some of the coins produced silver readings of 50% while others were much higher. The highest surface silver content detected was over 90% in 6 of the 29 cases. I expect to determine that these are actually "clad" coins - perhaps similar to Sheffield plate. It is possible to bond a thin layer of silver alloy with copper to nearly pure nickel. This combination dates back to the 1840s and can only be detected by XRF by cutting into the core.

One of the ICG graders believes that it what I should do next to prove my case.

Once again, I asked every dealer who routinely handles world coins if they were aware of genuine magnetic sols from Peru. The results of that question were as before - NOT ONE DEALER was aware that there were any genuine magnetic 50% silver sols.

So unless or until some actual scientific or historic data becomes available to support the contention that an actual magnetic composition was used - I for one do not accept the stories as being valid. All magnetic coins can be explained much easier by presuming they are simple counterfeits. This is another example where applying ockham's razor would support accepting the simpler theory.

I have already spent several hundred dollars and well over 100 hours trying to track down data on this one issue and my considered opinion as of this date is that:

1). ALL MAGNETIC SOLS ARE COUNTERFEIT.
2). MANY NON-MAGNETIC COUNTERFEITS EXIST AS WELL.
3). SOME SIGNIFICANT PORTION OF THESE "FAKES" DATE TO THE 1960s, OTHERS DATE TO THE 1930s (TRUE CONTEMPORARY CIRCULATING COUNTERFEITS) and SOME ARE RECENTLY MADE NUMISMATIC FORGERIES.
4). THERE IS NO CONCLUSIVE TEST TO DETERMINE THE CATEGORY OF FAKE IN ALL CASES.


Pillar of the Community
United States
1346 Posts
 Posted 03/23/2017  07:24 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add 999fine to your friends list
I've been following this thread since its first day. Thank you for your work on this project.
Valued Member
United States
397 Posts
 Posted 04/02/2017  8:35 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add smoke1439 to your friends list
Incredible work swamperbob! Your a valuable asset to this forum as well as the coin industry as a whole. Thanks!
Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts
 Posted 04/02/2017  9:15 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list
I have developed some additional insights into why some of the 50% coins produced silver readings much higher than 50%. It is a simple answer that applies solely to handheld XRF guns but it also effectively proves the contention I have advanced steadily since 1999 that ALL 8 Reales made before 1870 can be positively identified by trace contaminants.

As soon as I have completed writing the new section on contamination I plan to post it as a new topic on the forum. It will form a revised section in my book on contaminants. I also have some new data on about when a second edition of the book will be printed. That will be s second topic.
Valued Member
Uruguay
217 Posts
 Posted 04/02/2017  10:06 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add cara to your friends list
Thanks swamperbob, I look forward to these new contributions.
New Member
United States
7 Posts
 Posted 04/23/2017  10:23 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add ShadyDave to your friends list
If swamperbob is still interested in owning a slabbed 1933 sol that is magnetic in a genuine NGC holder, I am willing to sell it so he can review it and study it. I am new here so I am restricted and can't send a message/email so please let me know.

Thanks-
David
Pillar of the Community
United States
1962 Posts
 Posted 08/18/2017  02:05 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add realeswatcher to your friends list
I stopped caring about this as... well, how much can one care about 20th century Pery coinage... but happened to notice this:

3BXFbh0dXOA


cointalk.com/threads/authenticity-of-1930-peruvian-sol.301491/

The discussion is thus far useless... but good closeups of this 1930 specimen, anyway.

Edited by realeswatcher
08/18/2017 02:05 am
Valued Member
Uruguay
217 Posts
 Posted 08/19/2017  09:03 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add cara to your friends list
It seems that, after the discovery in CCF of fake Peruvian Sol coins , there has been some interest in the subject.
Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts
 Posted 08/19/2017  11:45 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list
I returned to this thread because of the new posts and realized that ShadyDave had offered to sell a magnetic 1933 slabbed sol. I had missed the offer earlier. Hopefully Dave or someone who knows him will relay my interest.

Regarding my offer to post more information on why the reliability of Handheld XRF is adequate to test Mexican 8Rs for gold but for not diagnosing the actual Ag versus Cu levels in many older coins. I am still far from completing a draft of my proposed chapter on XRF because the subject is still under active research and I am concerned that a preliminary draft may not resemble the final text.

To summarize my findings so far:

1. The denser the metal the deeper beneath the surface it can be detected with XRF at a given power. That is why the shallow depth of penetration of a handheld XRF unit can accurately detect gold in and beneath a toning layer while miss reporting the lighter elements like copper and silver.

2. The thickness of toning caused by the corrosion of both silver and copper absorbs the XRF signal of the handheld unit so that a ratio of Silver to copper may not be accurate on deeply toned coins. Black toning silver sulfides are actually the worst form of toning for XRF to penetrate.

3. Older coins were made in several steps and in the case of 8Rs they were usually annealed several times prior to issue using fire to heat the blanks and planchets. The thick visible scale was removed by lengthy immersion in a warmed acid bath. This results in the depletion of surface copper when compared to silver. This same technique is used by counterfeiters to make a high copper alloy look like coin silver. That is why many of the 50% sols test 80-90% silver using the cheaper surface XRF tests (including SEM). The actual return signal depth of copper is almost identical to the thickness of the depletion layer when a coin is immersed in acid for more than a few minutes. As a result the ratio of silver to copper detected is wrong.

4. I suspect that the Peruvian and US mints both intentionally gave planchets an extra long bath in acid to enrich surface silver and improve the final color of the one and one half sol coins. The first issue of the 50% alloy was so poor in color that they did not circulate well. Later issues in high grades have great surface color far closer to 90% silver than 50%. The same effect can be seen on the Wartime 5 cent US coins in MS grades.

If you put together all of the piece parts of the Sol puzzle uncovered so far and you should see that the tests support this conclusion.
Valued Member
United States
97 Posts
 Posted 08/20/2017  5:34 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add afewmorecents to your friends list
IMHO, I believe the TPGS have certified several of these counterfeits as genuine. I also know that at least one of the top two TPGS thinks Bob is a nutcase. That's too bad, they probably could have learned something if they had worked closely with Bob. I'm glad to know that one grading service (ICG) was not so "full-of-themselves" that they were able to take Bob seriously.
Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts
 Posted 08/20/2017  10:54 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list
afewmorecents and thanks for the vote of confidence.

I was sorry to hear that Jay Turner finalizer at NGC had been let go. He was one person at NGC that didn't think I was a nutcase.

I believe that the simple logic of scientific analysis as a valid part of authentication (Specific Gravity testing and XRF tests - properly performed and interpreted) can not be ignored forever. Science is a tool that can save the hobby from the subjective avarice now driving much of the numismatic world.

Personally I see IGC as the most open of the TPG's to accepting the simple fact that science as a methodology is a great improvement over subjective analysis based only on the personalities involved.
New Member
United States
7 Posts
 Posted 08/21/2017  3:51 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add ShadyDave to your friends list
Hi Swamperbob-

I'm still here following the thread and still have the sol and would like to difinitivelu solve this once and for all.

Can you provide me with your email, soo you and I can discuss further? I'm not very familiar with this forum and since I am new, I am restricted from sending messages to other users.


Thanks-
David
Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts
 Posted 08/21/2017  4:05 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list
I am swamperbob22 and I use AOL. I am also in the Phone book in Fayetteville, NC - Robert R. Gurney (910) 425-1224
New Member
United States
2 Posts
 Posted 08/25/2017  12:07 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add mackat to your friends list
The CoinTalk thread which was referenced in the last post on page 6 is mine. There was really no definite conclusion reached, except that multiple people thought that it looked suspect. I would tend to agree with that, since it just looks a bit off. II still have it, and might try to take it back to the store from which I bought it to see what he thinks, although I only paid $10 for it. If anyone would like any more information or pictures, just let me know.
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