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Why Are Proofs Generally Less Valued In Resale Markets?

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 Posted 03/05/2020  8:19 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add hfjacinto to your friends list
I generally collect classic coins and in some classics (like the V nickels and IHC), a proof is actually cheaper than a high MS Circulation strike and all I can figure out is that Proofs are designed for collectors so many are saved, while the circulation strike is designed to be spent so few are saved. And the average person will collect the circulation strikes but not the proofs. I would assume that proofs are collected by specialized/advanced/having more money collectors hence there are fewer people looking for a proof than for a circulated coin. Hence while there are fewer proofs there are fewer people that collect them, hence they have a lower value. As to whether this us true or not, I can't say.Just my perception.
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 Posted 03/05/2020  8:58 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add CoinCollector2012 to your friends list

Quote:
maybe they're trying to increase their collecting value by lowering supply?


This is not how it works. Proof sets are minted to demand, so the lower mintages are because people are buying less sets. Newer proof sets have more coins in them (Native American Dollar, ATB Quarters, Presidential dollars, etc.) than the older sets do, thus the issue price is higher.
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 Posted 03/05/2020  9:26 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add sel_69l to your friends list
Mints are trying to make their profits as well. (Just like any other business).
Therefore, they sell them at the highest price they think they can get.
Actually, this applies to all newly made Mint product.

That is why, if you like this sort of thing, it is better to buy in the numismatic aftermarket.
Even so, re-sell profits after purchase in the numismatic aftermarket years later, can be very slim to strongly negative.

If there is no demand, the silver bullion price, even with proof coins, is the best you can hope for.
Silver stackers love this sort of situation, where they can buy proof silver coins at a bullion price.
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 Posted 03/05/2020  11:20 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Earle42 to your friends list
Here is an older collectors idea on all of this.
When I was a kid, communications were not as instantaneous as today. Getting a new coin for the album meant either making a trip to the local coin shop (if you had one - urban areas only), finding one in change, or waiting a whole month for the next issue of your favorite coin magazine so you could check the lists and mail order them. We won't mention Littleton.

The hobby was mainly all about the anticipation of hunting for and thrill of finding (you hoped) hole fillers from change/circulation. Regular issue coins is what it was all about. And since there was no eBay-instantaneous-buy-it-now full collection of (let's say) Franklin half dollars at your cell-phone-dancing-fingertips 24/7, the hunt to complete your album/set was what it was all about for most people.

Plus the makers of those "little holes" rarely ever included (if at all) holes for proof issues. Why were no proof issues included in the albums? Again, the mindset seemed more to be that a "complete set" was made of "regular coins" anyone had a chance of finding in circulation. Since proofs were just the mint showing how perfect they could make a coin, proofs were not normal coins and certainly were just extras not to be confused with being a part of the "actual" (album-hole-defined) set.

Had Whitman made holes for proofs, things may have been different. But, then again, maybe not. Some other company may have become dominant that "knew" it was taboo to break coins out of a proof set (more on this later).

Think of typical car - normal coins. Think of curb feelers on a car (dating myself) - proof coins - not standard issue.

Just like an awful lot of collectors are afraid to crack a coin out of a slab, back in those days no one would be crazy enough to break apart an officially packaged, "US Government Mint Proof Set." After all, the marketers made sure we were aware proofs were incredibly special coins being of the highest possible quality, and (a big point here) no human hand had ever touched them! A handled proof coin violated this no-touchy rule and stripped the coin of its sacred status/value. Proofs were a world apart from what went into our "complete" album sets.

Another point is proofs lacked the fundamental thing which keeps hobbies alive: the thrill of the hunt to bag something special. Anyone could have a proof by throwing money at them, however not everyone had found a 1932-S quarter...yet!

I think the old stigma of proof coins only being a sideline special issue kept the prices low when the internet appeared. As the newer generation has come along, they see tons of proofs online for very little money. Hence the lower mintage eye candy coins are seen as having no real value to them.

Albums with proof holes are more well known now, but the vast majority still don't have those holes. So except for a few special sets for eye candy, few people still want the proofs.

Admittedly the idea that a complete set is one from regular issue coins (with a few exceptions) is so deeply ingrained in me that I don't go after proofs. I make an exception on Ikes and Kennedy halves simply b/c, for some reason, I just want them.
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 Posted 03/06/2020  12:06 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Conder101 to your friends list
First you are not considering survival rates. Since the early 60's the survival rate of proof coins (with the possible exception of the silver proofs of 60 to 64) is probably around 90%. So most of the proofs made are still around. The survival rate of business strikes in MS probably tops out at 5% or less for a common year. Business strikes were meant to circulate and did.

Second it is important to consider how many collectors are there? The Mint says 150 million but that is absurd. They were counting everyone who put away a few State Quarters as being a collector. Well I can believe one out of every two people has a few State Quarters put away, but I wouldn't say one out of every two people collect coins. I think a much closer figure would be 2 million, and that would be at all levels from the guy with just a casual interest aoo they way to the collctor level putting together something like the Pogue collection.

If you accept that 2 million estimate, then guess what, proof coin mintages really aren't that low. Especially when you consider that for any given proof issue, with a 90% survival rate, not all of those 2 million are wanting it. This basically means that there are more of these proof coins floating around than there are collectors wanting them. (And many of those that do are perfectly happy with a raw one, which reduces demand for the slabbed ones even more) Well what happens when supply exceeds demand? Prices scrape bottom.

But for the MS coins since the survival rate is so much lower,and the quality of the MS coins that survive is usually not that great, supply many not exceed demand. So in that case the value of the MS coins can easily exceed that of the proofs.
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 Posted 03/06/2020  07:01 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list
Two super, thoughtful posts by earle and conder on this topic.
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 Posted 03/06/2020  09:23 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add just carl to your friends list
Only collectors want them. And just not enough collectors of Proof coins. Usually only good for completing an Album.
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 Posted 03/08/2020  05:28 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Kawliga to your friends list
Earle and Conder, thank you so much for your very thoughtful answers, they make total sense. It's not every day you get a fully satisfying explanation for something, and so I'm really glad I finally got around to asking this!
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 Posted 03/08/2020  11:19 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Lionel90 to your friends list
Very interesting topic. I reread carefully to understand, thanks for all the info.
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 Posted 03/31/2020  06:00 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Silver101 to your friends list
They have no soul! Even the mint state coins seem sterile to me. No one's used them for anything, they haven't survived. The AUs hold the most interest to me: they generally look nice but that little bit of wear means that they've been in a few pockets and bought a few things. They've been part of the world.
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 Posted 03/31/2020  06:57 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add oriole to your friends list
This is a very interesting question as it touches on the psychological aspects of collecting-why do collectors like something and not like something else. Econ 101, where price is a function of supply vs. demand, cannot explain the demand, because coins are not a necessity. You can calculate the supply but the demand is pure human psychology, quite resistant to rational explanation. Aesthetics and beauty are not rational-but so what?
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 Posted 03/31/2020  08:45 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Silver101 to your friends list
Well, scarcity plays a part in all this - the proofs are not generally all that scarce.
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 Posted 03/31/2020  08:49 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Silver101 to your friends list
But yes, old coins - the whole thing is a little irrational....
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 Posted 03/31/2020  11:50 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add oriole to your friends list
Yes, @Silver81, I did not want to say this out loud, but coin collecting itself is not particularly rational, assuming that I or anyone care. We can't be stopped. Logic does not apply. Mr. Spock and the other Vulcans could not become coin collectors.
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 Posted 04/01/2020  9:34 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add realeswatcher to your friends list
A lot of collectors see modern proofs as what they are - modern contrived schlock made to look and perpetually remain (as Conder101 rightly noted) boringly perfect. It's one step off what baseball cards turned into... there's ZERO character.

I hear people like those proofs they did backwards by accident, though.


Quote:
Regular issue coins is what it was all about.

So were a lot of collectors turning down those cheap and readily available Barber and Walker proofs back then?
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