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!878 CC Morgan Bright Pl? But Some Rough Spots Need Advice

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Pillar of the Community
United States
3076 Posts
 Posted 07/31/2010  9:28 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add aladinslamp to your friends list
Its hard to say so for sure when the pics are not up to show the mirror effect. DMPL looks just like it says..like your looking in a mirror, and PL has some of the mirror reflectivity, it should also be noted high end normal coins have the cartwheel which as you tilt your coin back and forth there is like a shine that moves around the coin like some of the new wheels you see on cars..A mirrored surface is just that, the whole perifial of the coin looks back at you at once..there is a grading standard of how many inches the coin will reflect, but that has changed from time to time these are just general principles
I'll check of some photo's
Bedrock of the Community
United States
14454 Posts
 Posted 07/31/2010  9:34 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Bryan1315 to your friends list
I think you are looking at cartwheel instead of prooflike surfaces. cartwheel is great because it means its as minted and reflects colors and you tilt the coin, Pl and DMPL are different where they look as a mirror would reflecting in the coin. This is an example of DMPL and you can see how the fields reflect almost like a mirror

!878-CC-Morgan-Bright--Pl?--But-Some-Rough-Spots-Need-Advice
Pillar of the Community
United States
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 Posted 07/31/2010  9:52 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add aladinslamp to your friends list
very nice coin there!
New Member
United States
21 Posts
 Posted 07/31/2010  10:48 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Slumberjack to your friends list
Is this more like what you needed to see?

!878-CC-Morgan-Bright--Pl?--But-Some-Rough-Spots-Need-Advice

!878-CC-Morgan-Bright--Pl?--But-Some-Rough-Spots-Need-Advice

I will try for a reflection picture next
New Member
United States
21 Posts
 Posted 07/31/2010  11:20 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Slumberjack to your friends list
A constant learning experience. Suspect I can get a better picture than this. This was a .6 second exposure taken in avaiable room light
ISO 200

!878-CC-Morgan-Bright--Pl?--But-Some-Rough-Spots-Need-Advice
Pillar of the Community
United States
3076 Posts
 Posted 07/31/2010  11:25 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add aladinslamp to your friends list
that is much better and does look PL, photo's are hard to take if you don't have the right setup and lighting, My camera is a 2004 model, though it takes good close up pictures I can't get the color right its a battle. for your coin the rev pic is much better but I don't see the polish line on the right between the bow and wreath..BUT....polishing lines are very hard to take photo's of if you don;t have the light and the angle just right..I have copied the VM pic where it can be seen


!878-CC-Morgan-Bright--Pl?--But-Some-Rough-Spots-Need-Advice

\now that you can see it play with your lighting and the angle your trying to capture and see if its there, most of the pictures of the FINE POINTS are taken with Micro scopes....Though there are cameras out there that can capture it if you have enough money....
I'm in it for the love of the game, not the money. like many here..
Bedrock of the Community
United States
14454 Posts
 Posted 08/01/2010  02:17 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Bryan1315 to your friends list
I agree this coin does look to have at least PL surfaces in the other set of pictures which I have to say is pretty amazing for a 1878-CC Morgan as you do not see them very often

Quote:
most of the pictures of the FINE POINTS are taken with Micro scopes....Though there are cameras out there that can capture it if you have enough money....

this is a myth. you do not have to have an expensive camera to get good shots of any specific part of a coin. I use a 3.2Mp JVC point and shoot camera and I can get as close as I want to the coin and can get any show good enough to see any detail you would ever want. here is an example



!878-CC-Morgan-Bright--Pl?--But-Some-Rough-Spots-Need-Advice
Pillar of the Community
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 Posted 08/01/2010  02:21 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add aladinslamp to your friends list
very nice !
Pillar of the Community
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7123 Posts
 Posted 08/01/2010  02:28 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Metalman to your friends list
One surface does not prooflike make, we need the same depth on the other side of the coin to be sure.

its a nice coin, in MS-63 grade from the photo's in hand the horsepower may be different than the photo's indicate.

gotta love the happen-stance of coins !

Valued Member
United States
314 Posts
 Posted 08/01/2010  08:22 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Dcreek1968 to your friends list
One understanding I have for the grading of PL and DMPL coins is that both sides of the coin have to have the same reflectivity in the field surfaces in order to qualify for a PL or DMPL grade. DMPL requires you to be able to see a reflected image at a minimum depth of 12 inches I believe. PL would be something less than that. If the obverse has reflectivity to 6 inches and the reverse (typically the best side for all Morgans due to how they came out of the minting press) has reflectivity to 12 inches, the coin will not grade DMPL. I'll go out on a limb and say that PL has to have reflectivity to a depth of 6-10 inches. I'm sure there is someone out there with more expertise that could clarify this.
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United States
21 Posts
 Posted 08/01/2010  10:49 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Slumberjack to your friends list
How is that depth measured? distance from reflected object to field surface?
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 Posted 08/01/2010  3:01 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list

Quote:
How is that depth measured? distance from reflected object to field surface?


It's the distance at which you can read black-on-white 12pt type clearly on the coin.
New Member
United States
21 Posts
 Posted 08/01/2010  6:13 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Slumberjack to your friends list
first some pictures of the reverse reflectivity.

!878-CC-Morgan-Bright--Pl?--But-Some-Rough-Spots-Need-Advice

!878-CC-Morgan-Bright--Pl?--But-Some-Rough-Spots-Need-Advice

Next I thought I was looking for a polishing mark on the left. Though I must admit I not certain where it is in the offical picture.

I looked at the VAMworld photos and copied the descriptions below
More confused now.

1878-CC VAM-29
Discovery November 2008

29 II 1 - B1g (Line in IB, Medium CC With One Dot ) (179) I-3 R-4
Obverse II 1 - Slanted die scratches in top of I and bottom of B in Liberty. Die chips at top and bottom inside of left 8 lower loop. (Also occurs VAM-1B)
Reverse B1g - Die Marker - Short vertical polishing line above left wreath ribbon.

The Line in IB obverse of VAM 1B paired with the exact reverse of VAM 20.

1878-CC VAM-1B Line in IB

1B(revised) II 1 #8729; B1g (Line in IB) I-2 R-4

Obverse II 1 - Slanted die scratches in top of I and bottom of B in Liberty. Die chips at top and bottom inside of left 8 lower loop. (Also occurs VAM-29)
Reverse B1g - Normal die of 1878 P Type B1 with a long center arrow shaft. Medium mint marks, II CC, at medium height with die chips in center of both CC's. Die marker - Curved die scratch in top of first wreath leaf cluster.

There are two die gouges in LIBERTY, one at the top of the I and one at the bottom right of the B. This variety is easy to detect under standard magnification and can be found in mint state from the GSA hoard.

Note - The VAM-1B obverse paired with the exact reverse of VAM-20 is assigned 1878-CC VAM-29.

1878-CC VAM-20 (Line in Eye, Medium CC with Dot, Denticle Impressions TA)
Revised 2010
20 II1 - B1g (Line in Eye, Medium CC with Dot, Denticle Impressions TA) I-2 R-5
Obverse II1 - Line in eye variety, Same as Vam-17
Reverse B1g - Medium spaced II CC mint marks at medium height. Die chip in center of left C. Raised dots of denticle impresstion between lower serifs of TA in STATES with two faint raised dots between middle of TA and at top of lower serif of A. Spacing between them match denticle spacing. Heavy vertical die polishing lines in feilds extending from points of letters and desigh elements.

NOTE: LVA stated in the letter that the polishing lines are and (EDS) tell as well as (NO DIE CRACK) by the denticle impresstion of TA


!878-CC-Morgan-Bright--Pl?--But-Some-Rough-Spots-Need-Advice

More pictures to follow

And many thanks to all for input and even more light in the darkness of my ignorance. Ignorance is correctable, Stupidity is another matter.

Slumberjack
New Member
United States
21 Posts
 Posted 08/01/2010  9:38 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Slumberjack to your friends list
AS promised. I don't think VAM 29 if an exact match of VAM 20 reverse is needed as stated. TA is not right. S

!878-CC-Morgan-Bright--Pl?--But-Some-Rough-Spots-Need-Advice

!878-CC-Morgan-Bright--Pl?--But-Some-Rough-Spots-Need-Advice

!878-CC-Morgan-Bright--Pl?--But-Some-Rough-Spots-Need-Advice

some other interesting features though. Is that a clash mark by the E

Does this are look doubled

!878-CC-Morgan-Bright--Pl?--But-Some-Rough-Spots-Need-Advice

!878-CC-Morgan-Bright--Pl?--But-Some-Rough-Spots-Need-Advice
Pillar of the Community
United States
5640 Posts
 Posted 08/22/2010  12:21 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Morgans Dad to your friends list
Very nice example of an MS63PL coin.. Bryan, that Morgan you posted, what would that grade be, MS65-66DMPL?Very sweet original well struck example...
I believe that year, 1881, was known for just that, nice strong strikes....
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