Coin Community Family of Web Sites Join Thousands of Coin, Bullion, & Money Collectors
Vancouvers #1 Coin and Paper Money Dealer Royal Canadian Mint products, Canadian, Polish, American, and world coins and banknotes. Coin, Banknote and Medal Collectors's Online Mall Join Thousands of Coin, Bullion, & Money Collectors Royal Estate Auctions - $1 Coin Auctions300,000 items to help build your collection! Specializing in Modern Numismatics








Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?


This page may contain links that result in small commissions to keep this free site up and running.

Welcome Guest! Registering and/or logging in will remove the anchor (bottom) ads. It's Free!

Question On Weight Of Trade Dollar

To participate in the forum you must log in or register.
First Page Previous Page  Showing last 15 replies.
Author Previous TopicReplies: 37 / Views: 10,573Next Topic Page 3 of 3
Pillar of the Community
United States
3294 Posts
 Posted 09/13/2010  2:56 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add nod2003 to your friends list
Swamperbob, you should write a book! Very informative and detailed. I will keep those things in mind when dealing with higher-risk coins like Trade dollars.
Pillar of the Community
United States
2130 Posts
 Posted 09/13/2010  5:55 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add chris12018 to your friends list
I want to Thank everyone for their help in this matter. A special Thanks to swamperbob. That was alot of info. Just to clarify the weight is only 0.40 grams.

Is this a die crack or scratch? Ans. looks more like a scuff

What are the two lines that pass one another? Ans. They appear to be the result of the chop marks.

The reeds all look good.And no sing of tooling marks.

Swamperbob, If I sent this to you to authenticate, what would I owe you?
Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts
 Posted 09/13/2010  8:40 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list
Return postage would be adequate - provided I can photograph the coin.
Pillar of the Community
United States
2130 Posts
 Posted 09/13/2010  8:53 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add chris12018 to your friends list
That is great. Send me your addy. Yes, you can photo it.
Pillar of the Community
United States
2130 Posts
 Posted 10/15/2010  8:31 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add chris12018 to your friends list
I want to thank everyone for their help. I would like to say a special thanks to Swamperbob for his hands on help. Swamperbob had me mail him the Trade dollar and he ran a series of tests. The pictures that accompanied his detailed findings was more than I expected (counterfeit) But, a good one LOL! I was able to forward this info to the seller for a full refund. Swamperbob, once again I can't thank you enough. Your aces in my book.
Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts
 Posted 10/15/2010  8:33 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list
You are welcome. I enjoy the challenge of some of these well made forgeries. Thanks for sharing.
Pillar of the Community
United States
2669 Posts
 Posted 10/15/2010  9:58 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add xshift to your friends list
I would love to see the analysis, if neither of you minded.
Pillar of the Community
United States
1801 Posts
 Posted 10/15/2010  10:09 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jfransch to your friends list
Yes please post the analysis so we can all learn from it.
New Member
United States
12 Posts
 Posted 10/16/2010  12:52 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add chuckit to your friends list
Hi I'm new to the site, but not to the collecting! Great info... I have two Trade dollars 1875cc F and a 1878s vf, I've had both since the late 80s. My question is when did all the counterfeiting really start? Is there a time frame when this became the problem that it is today? Thanks!
Pillar of the Community
United States
2130 Posts
 Posted 10/16/2010  08:04 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add chris12018 to your friends list

Swamperbob, You may post those results here if you like.
Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts
 Posted 10/16/2010  1:59 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list
chuckit The problem with dating forgeries is that unless there is period documentation - everything else is guesswork. That is one reason I have been keeping dated records for the past 45 years. (As a kid in the 1950's my record keeping was sporadic, but I still find I have some counterfeit coin purchases from 1959 that are properly attributed. I was a nerd.)

There are other popular ways to date forgeries - such as by the method used to make the coin. This relies on knowing when certain technologies were introduced and gives a NOT BEFORE X date for the process. The weakness is that a forgery could be made today using an older technique so the upper limit on the date of manufacture is far less certain. As an example, Sheffield Plate the most common method employed for forgery in Colonial times was not in use until the 1770's - THEREFORE a forgery made of a 1500's Taler in Sheffield Plate is NOT contemporary but an early 1800's dollar COULD be. In either case, nothing that precludes both forgeries from being made last week. Sheffield technology is still in use but is not widespread.

Now onto the topic at hand - when were Trade dollars first forged?

The easy answer to that question is shortly after they were introduced in the 1870's. Widespread forgery was underway in the 1890's for sure. But they were not seen in the US in large numbers at the time. Most forgeries were made where they were used or made here and shipped to the orient.

The contemporary copies were made in two sub-classes as (1) Bullion counterfeits which were made with the correct amount of silver and were meant to circulate undetected alongside real coins. In that case the forger profited because of the low value of silver. This worked PROVIDED - there was a market for the product. The Trade dollars were eventually demonetized in the US to keep them out of the US Treasury. That is why most bullion forgers concentrated on US $1 coins and Mexican 8Rs because both coins retained a monetary value exceeding bullion - while Trade dollars DID NOT. These early bullion forgeries are still common and many dealers treat them as originals because of the silver content and age. (Plus they can't really tell anyway.) (2) The second contemporary series type were the off metal and debased forgeries made while the Trade dollar was still in use. These were meant to pass only a brief time and were easily detected if you examined the coin (weight, density or die work). They are NOT that common but are there if you hunt around. They were made mostly in the orient and few made it to the US.

After Trade dollars finally became collectible (usually dated to the 1940's or 1950's) the scarcer varieties were targeted by Numismatic forgers. These "modern" forgeries were never meant to pass into circulation or to be used as bullion. They were frauds made for collectors.

However, the earliest Numismatic fraud of a Trade dollar was the 1884 dated coin reported in the March, 1884 issue of Numisma. That is literally 3 months after the series ended. The reason for the forgery is uncertain but perhaps the bullion forgers got carried away and made a fantasy date. Or as is commonly believed mint officials produced a fantasy date to meet a perceived demand. Yet ultimately, the popularity of the 1884 and later 1885 coins with collectors makes the March 1884 report the first report of a "counterfeit or unauthorized" Trade dollar.

Don Taxay in his 1963 book classifies the 1884 and 1885 Trade dollars in the same class as the 1804 Dollar and the 1913 V nickel. Unauthorized versions made at the mint. But no one knows for sure. Taxay writes about the Trade dollars mostly in terms of Numismatic copies and does not detail any common date forgeries.

Trade dollars are likewise noted in the 1979 book by Hancock and Spanbauer but with more information on the non-numismatic forgeries. There they refer to Trade dollars as the "unwanted" series quoting from Willem's 1959 book on the coin. But Hancock expands the topic to include cast off metal copies of the Trade dollar that were prevalent in the early 1970's. He pictures 4 common dates 1875S, 1876(possibly CC), 1877S and 1878S. Here is a quote from Hancock on the date issue:


Quote:
Crudely cast counterfeit US Trade dollars had been made in small quantities for years, but AROUND 1972(emphasis added), thousands of rather well-made cast counterfeit Trade dollars were imported from Southeast Asia ....


Hancock said the copies were well enough made that they would be problems for decades. He was right, coins of the same type as he described in 1979 are still on the market today - they are often coins that "were owned by my grandfather who collected in the mid-1970's" etc. They are coming out of the woodwork because of the sale of older collections.

However, the Chinese in particular have recently flooded the market with new copies. Some are cast - some are pressed - some are struck in a 3 die press - some are iron, nickel or silver. These newest copies are in some cases the hardest to detect. The methods used by forgers have improved since the 1970's and it takes a trained or experienced eye to spot the new ones.

So I guess that even though you have had the Trade dollars in question for 30 years that is NO GUARANTEE AT ALL that they are not forgeries. Check them.
Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts
 Posted 10/16/2010  3:24 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list
Here is what I wrote regarding Chris' coin. The first letter was written before I unpacked from my trip to New England so I had limited access to my testing apparatus:

Hello Chris,

The Trade dollar was in the mail my wife picked up from the PO while I was in New England. I got to look at it today. I got home last night at 12 midnight after a 12 hour drive.

Initially, based on a microscopic examination I believe it is a forgery. However, the clues are NOT overwhelming and it may still be real. I do work on a predominance of evidence basis if there is no conclusive diagnostic. I will have to do some added tests tomorrow after I unpack all of my instruments and my camera. I want to take pictures of what I see as anomalies. I also want to look at it with more rested eyes.

What I noted so far is as follows:

1. On the obverse, there is a "seam" running concentrically in the flat portion of the rim. This could be a line caused by a misaligned or worn collar - however, it appears that someone intentionally tried to remove the seam by filing the edge. There are repeated patches of parallel scratches indicating it was mechanically smoothed. This is not typical of wear patterns - especially since the file marks are wholly contained along the rim and do NOT extend to the coin's face.

2. The dirt accumulated in the Chops and elsewhere is "soft" easily dislodged with the corner of a sheet of paper - typical of some "aged" Chinese counterfeits in silver. It has a waxy to slightly abrasive texture and could be a light polish used in a finishing step. There is a very limited amount of dark patina but some streaks of dark material appear to be very recently applied with highly reflective (wet looking) surfaces. These collectively are indications of recent cleaning and/or artificial aging.

3. I noticed numerous very short stubby animal hairs - bristles on the surface which I have seen on many Pillar 8R counterfeits coming from China. These very dark brown hairs are embedded in the soft surface dirt. In one place, it appears that one hair may have been STRUCK INTO THE SURFACE. I will concentrate on that area tomorrow. A struck in hair which matches loose hairs found on the surface would be a DEFINITIVE indication of forgery.

4. I also noted the presence of filings (shiny flecks apparently silver) lodged in the surface dirt. This could also indicate recent manufacture or at least it would place the coin in a "workshop" type of environment very recently.

5. The edge pattern of the reeds looks very good. There are no split top reeds or laps in the design. The design appears correct but - I will count the reeds and measure the spacing tomorrow when I can see just a bit better.

6. The die surfaces look good with just few stray suspicious marks. I see some but not enough to be definitive.

7. The chops look slightly irregular - I will try to clean the bottom surface of one or two chops tomorrow to see if the chops were made with single puncheons as they should be. Forgers have been known to use small punch elements (straight segments) to create a real looking letter with several separate strokes. These forged chops are normally filled with dirt to cover the bases of the punch.

8. The weight is correct based on my small digital electric scale, but my analytical balance is still packed. I want to check the SG.

I will get back to you tomorrow after I complete the other tests.

Bob

Here is the follow-up from the following day. I have done some editing and added modified pictures because the ones I sent to Chris did not upload to the forum. :

Hi Chris,

After a good night's sleep - I realize that I seem to be weeks behind in my regular work because of the past week! LOL

(.... deleted material that was off topic) But I will add pictures of the coin itself here.

Question-On-Weight-Of-Trade-Dollar


Question-On-Weight-Of-Trade-Dollar
Anyway, regarding your coin. I started by doing a Specific Gravity test this AM. I did the test 3 times (standard) achieving a +/- 0.003 gram range and the resulting SG is 9.967 to 9.959. That equates to a silver alloy with a fineness between 700 and 705. That is a conclusive result - the coin is not original. Sorry.

I also examined the coin again using the microscope and confirmed my earlier observations. I cleaned one chop sufficiently to determine that the dirt did cover an overstrike.


Question-On-Weight-Of-Trade-Dollar

Question-On-Weight-Of-Trade-Dollar

The chop is NOT composed of a single stroke. The elements (of at least the one I chose to clean) were cut with at least two different punches applied in succession. A normal chop punch was a SINGLE stroke meant to cut into the coin and expose a plate. The second cut in this case was done to enhance the appearance of the chop. That is an artificial attempt to make the character look better. The curl of metal near the right upright section of the chop is the proof of a second over punch.


The immersion in distilled water to do the SG test did remove many, but not all of the brown hairs I observed. The one I suspected was a strike through was in fact impressed into the surface of the coin. Removal of a portion of the "hair" exposed an impression in the surface.


Question-On-Weight-Of-Trade-Dollar

To the left of the two berries is what looks like a hangman's noose. That is one of the hairs or fibers that is impressed into the surface. I broke the fiber and removed a section (before this picture was taken) located near the "knot" this exposed a recess in the metal. The shadow makes the fiber appear intact but there is a gap. You can also see one of the hairs - more like a bristle to the right of the berries near the leaves.


I was also bothered by the profile of Liberty - the image doubling can be original but is more common on counterfeits.


Question-On-Weight-Of-Trade-Dollar

Today I noted more surface blemishes than I did last night. Here for instance is a raised circular dot that does not belong - this is a depression in the die face.


Question-On-Weight-Of-Trade-Dollar

Sorry it did not come out better, but as a counterfeit the coin is a very interesting item because of the skill with which it was produced. It would have been far more difficult to PROVE it was a forgery if the SG had been 10.30. It is the best forgery of a Trade dollar that I have seen to date. Super from that perspective but of very limited actual value. I can return it when I go to the PO on Friday.

Bob Gurney
Pillar of the Community
United States
2669 Posts
 Posted 10/17/2010  04:51 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add xshift to your friends list
Thanks a lot, Bob..
New Member
United States
12 Posts
 Posted 10/17/2010  10:19 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add chuckit to your friends list
Thanks alot for the info Swamperbob... Will be doing some checking. Thanks again.Lots of great info here!
Pillar of the Community
United States
2130 Posts
 Posted 10/21/2010  06:55 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add chris12018 to your friends list
Thanks again Swamperbob
Page 3 of 3   Previous TopicReplies: 37 / Views: 10,573Next Topic Page 3 of 3
First Page Previous Page  Showing last 15 replies.
To participate in the forum you must log in or register.


    




Disclaimer: While a tremendous amount of effort goes into ensuring the accuracy of the information contained in this site, Coin Community assumes no liability for errors. Copyright 2005 - 2026 Coin Community Family- all rights reserved worldwide. Use of any images or content on this website without prior written permission of Coin Community or the original lender is strictly prohibited.
Contact Us  |  Advertise Here  |  Privacy Policy / Terms of Use

Coin Community Forum © 2005 - 2026 Coin Community Forums
It took 0.39 seconds to rattle this change. Forums