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Byzantine Bonus

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Pillar of the Community

United States
1549 Posts
 Posted 01/18/2012  12:05 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add dougsmit to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
My order arrived yesterday with a free bonus coin that was in many ways more interesting than the coins I paid for. This is an example of where seeming conflicting evidence must be considered when identifying a coin. Lets look first at close views of the obverse legend (left above - right below).


Byzantine-Bonus

After the expected DN we see IVSTI and then what could be part of an N that runs into the crown on the portrait. On the right side (here below) is NVS PP AVG with a wedge shape at a strange angle between the other side of the crown and the NVS. If we read the clear letters we get IVSTINVS so we might think the coin belongs to one of the Justins. Right? No, as a matter of fact. Now lets look at the whole coin.


Byzantine-Bonus

We see a ten nummi (big letter I) facing bust Byzantine from Antioch mint (THUR here but trust me that is one of the ways they did Theopolis) from year XXXIIII.

Here we see a problem. Justin I ruled for under 10 years and Justin II for 13 so year 34 is out. Justin I did not use facing busts either. The coin belongs to Justinian I. Looking back at the obverse legend we can reconsider that partial N and the triangular blob and now read DN IVSTIN ANVS so somewhere in the crown we lost an I. Those Byzantines were tricky. The coin is Sear Byzantine 238. The listing for SB 239 (dates picking up at 35 and the mintmark spelling changed to THEUP) carries the note "but legend usually badly blundered". It seems the blundering started just a bit earlier than Sear recognized. I'd complain that the cutter shorted me an I but obviously there is enough I on the reverse to cover to shortage.

For a free coin, it is pretty nice. Thanks to the Bargain Bin from which it came.
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Bing's Avatar
United States
4253 Posts
 Posted 01/18/2012  12:15 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Bing to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Interesting thread and investigative work on your part. Free? Pretty darn good for my favorite price I think.
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Gil-galad's Avatar
United States
2044 Posts
 Posted 01/18/2012  12:31 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Gil-galad to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Doesn't a "free" bonus coin come with a usually higher priced coin as I would suspect? lol

This thread is interesting and a nice coin. Byzantine coins seem to have a lot of affordable ones as much as Imperial Romans do. Perhaps I may collect a few in the future.
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echizento's Avatar
United States
23731 Posts
 Posted 01/18/2012  12:35 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add echizento to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Interesting little coin, nice detail also.
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giano's Avatar
279 Posts
 Posted 01/18/2012  12:51 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add giano to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
it's really a nice coin....to be honest no one have ever given a free coin to me....and all byzantine I have I had to pay....however is a coin that can go even for 40€ here....lot of compliments!
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War Nickel's Avatar
United States
172 Posts
 Posted 01/18/2012  12:51 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add War Nickel to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
General question regarding these fascinating, ancient coins; for some of the more common varieties, do any high-quality examples exist? (AU for example or MS-55 for those that prefer the newer grading system...or even AU and MS-60?) Are they also in the same realm of affordability also? Just wondering, my wife loves Byzantine art and history as so little art exists from that time....
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DVCollector's Avatar
United States
10045 Posts
 Posted 01/18/2012  12:53 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add DVCollector to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Yeah, nice freebie there! Great bit of research--I'm impressed how these legends get interpreted; I'm very much a learner here.
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Gil-galad's Avatar
United States
2044 Posts
 Posted 01/18/2012  12:58 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Gil-galad to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The modern grading system just doesn't and won't apply to ancient coins. I could explain it, but I think this page might give you some answers and perhaps more questions as well.

http://www.forumancientcoins.com/do...h/grade.html

Ancient coins can be very affordable, from the very low grade common coins costing a few dollars each. Then you have common coins that are detailed and attributable that can cost around $5-$15. Of course you will have many rare ancient coins just as there are rare modern and US coins.
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jessvc1's Avatar
United States
2596 Posts
 Posted 01/18/2012  3:20 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jessvc1 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
thats a very nice coin, and thanks for the lesson too.
Pillar of the Community
United States
1549 Posts
 Posted 01/18/2012  8:12 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add dougsmit to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
"Doesn't a "free" bonus coin come with a usually higher priced coin as I would suspect? lol"

Actually I paid for two coins on this occasion but figured more people here would appreciate the free one. One was an upgrade of a coin I have posted here before (now I have to figure out what to do with the old one) and the other was very similar to coins recently posted by others so I saw no need to show I had one, too.

I never really know what to post that might be of interest. Compared to when they were made, the coins I had in 1963 are equally old as the ones I got today. A couple may be a bit before 1963 when I took a photo (terrible quality) that shows my coins at that time. I only have three coins left from those old, old days and did not start cataloging carefully until 20 years later.
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Sap's Avatar
Australia
16870 Posts
 Posted 01/18/2012  8:36 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Sap to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
...for some of the more common varieties, do any high-quality examples exist? (AU for example or MS-55 for those that prefer the newer grading system...or even AU and MS-60?) Are they also in the same realm of affordability also? Just wondering, my wife loves Byzantine art and history as so little art exists from that time.

Byzantine copper coins are notorious for being typically found in terrible condition, far worse than Late Roman bronzes that are a couple hundred years older. I don't know why, whether it's the different alloys used, the different soil types in the "Byzantine" part of the Empire they were buried in, or different attitudes to money making them less-well-preserved when buried.

What you never get with any ancient bronzes is anything close to MS/uncirculated. All ancient and Byzantine coins that are still around today are still around because somebody buried them and someone else dug them up again relatively recently. Bronze and other copper alloys are simply far too prone to corrosion when buried; they've all been too harshly cleaned to deserve the "uncirculated" tag. Ancient silver coins can sometimes be found in near-mint-state (though these too will have been cleaned), but Byzantine silver coins, in any condition, are almost as hard to find as hen's teeth or dragon scales; they're typically worth more than the gold ones.

You can, however, get near-pristine Byzantine gold coins, for not too much above bullion value. Byzantine gold is by far the cheapest ancient or early mediaeval gold coinage you can buy. This solidus on Wildwinds of Justinian I, the same emperor that's on dougsmit's coin, went unsold at a CNG auction in 2002 with a $400 estimate. So if you want a lovely piece of "Byzantine art" in your collection, a gold solidus is the best way to go.

Caveat: buy from reputable dealers. There's been quite a few fake Byzantine gold coins around in the past few years.
Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
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