The 1889-CC That Isn't! Other Photos Added Original Post

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Author	Replies: 19 / Views: 2,636	Page: of 2
coffeecup57 Valued Member United States 146 Posts	Posted 02/07/2013 9:07 pm This is not going to be a scientific analysis of this coin, I have an opinion as to what was done and no idea how it is done. I bought this coin several years ago as a fake.It is one of several I own,another is 1877S Trade dollar.A 1916D Mercury with a added mint mark.For another thread. The following is what I and the dealer I bought it from believe is a genuine 1889 Morgan dollar with a "CC"mint mark added. Weight and Diameter are good,"Reeding" looks sharp and clean.Looks like it could have been close to uncirculated,but I think the whole coin has been buffed,my opinion. This coin also shows some minor clashed dies on obverse and reverse. ; These last two pictures,best I could get,show closeup of "MM" and the fields around it.The coin in hand shows what appears to be shallow depression to left of "MM"in field,and a small amount from the right side where I think meatel was moved to form "MM"."MM" is extremely rough especially around the top half of both "C's.Looks like heavy buffing around "MM"area as bottom part of ribbon,some leaves and Top half of"D"in dollar are smoth compared to the rest of coin.Also looks like they got the top left of the"O". ; All opinions and input appreciated SsuperDdave let me know on this one,it isn't as sharp as it could be. regards coffeecup57 Edited by coffeecup57 02/08/2013 6:13 pm Report this Post to the Staff

mds308 Pillar of the Community United States 1721 Posts	Posted 02/07/2013 9:27 pm Find the coin that belongs to those clash marks and you have your answer (or part of it). Report this Post to the Staff
dave700x Rest in Peace United States 10625 Posts	Posted 02/07/2013 9:39 pm While the mint mark position is close to VAM5 the clash "v" on the reverse does not appear to be in a known position. Definitely an altered coin. Report this Post to the Staff
1893S Pillar of the Community United States 1554 Posts	Posted 02/07/2013 10:29 pm Looks like the counterfeit 89CC I saw a couple months ago made from an 1880CC Report this Post to the Staff
epikur Pillar of the Community Sweden 729 Posts	Posted 02/08/2013 06:36 am I have found the clashed "v" on several differnt years of my Morgans. Most are not listed as VAMs. Seems to be an extremely common clash, at least in my collection of morgans. Report this Post to the Staff
coffeecup57 Valued Member United States 146 Posts	Posted 02/08/2013 11:33 am Quote: I have found the clashed "v" on several differnt years of my Morgans. Most are not listed as VAMs. Seems to be an extremely common clash, at least in my collection of morgans. The encyclopedia of Morgans and Peace dollars talks about clash marks being common throughout the series of Morgans.It also mentions a clashed "E" on reverse from "LIBERTY" just under the tail feathers of the Eagle.Three dates with the full"E".These three are listed as VAMS. 1886-O 1889-O 1891-O .1886-O is the rarest with 1891-O being the most common. regards coffeecup57 Report this Post to the Staff
1893S Pillar of the Community United States 1554 Posts	Posted 02/08/2013 12:17 pm I would look more closely at the date to see if the 0 has been changed to a 9. Alot easier to alter that way than to add a mint mark. Report this Post to the Staff
1893S Pillar of the Community United States 1554 Posts	Posted 02/08/2013 12:22 pm I do see what appears to be roughness around the MM but I'd still double check the 9. Report this Post to the Staff
dave700x Rest in Peace United States 10625 Posts	Posted 02/08/2013 12:23 pm The orientation of the obverse to reverse die during a clash event leaves the clash markings in a specific location or degrees from top dead center (0 degrees). This is most evident with the V next to the left wing, the neck line from the top right wing and wing line off of the neck. All these markers are like finger prints and usually no two die pairings (VAMs) have the same marking locations . Die clashed coins will not be listed unless there is letter transfer or notable counter clashes. The OP coin shows the V clash mark slightly off from all listed VAM locations for 1889 CC. Report this Post to the Staff
coffeecup57 Valued Member United States 146 Posts	Posted 02/08/2013 1:26 pm Quote: I would look more closely at the date to see if the 0 has been changed to a 9. Alot easier to alter that way than to add a mint mark. Will get a closeup taken of the date and post later today.Maybe a more experienced eye will spot something.In hand under a loupe,there appears to be no tampering or alterations. Thanks for all the input so far. regards coffeecup57 Report this Post to the Staff
SsuperDdave Moderator United States 23522 Posts	Posted 02/08/2013 3:01 pm In addition, can you get a closeup of the area I've circled in red? If real, this could only be a VAM-5, and that variety has a distinctive die scratch at the spot I've noted. Edit: Golly, that 9 looks waaaaay wrong. Nowhere near where it should be. Report this Post to the Staff
Arcticsparky Valued Member United States 380 Posts	Posted 02/08/2013 3:08 pm It looks like the metal around the cc has been excavated a little. Is there a method where they might heat up the metal in that area and vacuum it into a cc stamp? Report this Post to the Staff
SsuperDdave Moderator United States 23522 Posts	Posted 02/08/2013 6:24 pm Thanks for the additional images, coffeecup57. Based on them, I'm pretty certain that this one's an altered-mint mark but otherwise genuine 1889. No way to tell what the original mint mark was. Report this Post to the Staff
D0ubl3Eagle Pillar of the Community United States 5854 Posts	Posted 02/08/2013 6:59 pm Yeah, this one looks like an altered mintmark. In the most recent picture posted upon SsuperDdave's request, the striations within liberty look eerily similar to the ones exhibited by this altered mintmark posted recently. That coin appear to match an 1889-P Vam-43a and my feeling is yours may match too. Some of the more knowledgeable members will probably either confirm or deny my suspicions. Report this Post to the Staff
1893S Pillar of the Community United States 1554 Posts	Posted 02/08/2013 7:32 pm Yes. it does appear to be an altered MM. I always check the date after I saw the clever date alteration a couple months ago. A novice dealer acquaintance of mine got stuck with it and it looked so real it was a wakeup for him. Report this Post to the Staff
DVCollector Bedrock of the Community United States 10045 Posts	Posted 02/08/2013 7:33 pm Quote: I'm pretty certain that this one's an altered-mint mark but otherwise genuine 1889. How do you suppose this one was added? It looks rather soft for a soldered mm--do you supposed it was worked up from the fields--I wonder what the rim looks like? Report this Post to the Staff
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