Pocket Pieces For The Purpose Of "Improvement:" OK Or Not?

Putting a coin in your pocket is nothing that hasnt been done to the coin before. If thats unacceptable for a coin then the only acceptable coins are mint state ones and everything else should be in a Details "Spent Time In Someones Pocket" slab. Its like saying youre damaging our current coins because you use them and they should all get details grades if you ever put your change in your pocket.

Theres no expiration date for when a coin can stop being used or changes can stop happening to them. That would be like discounting a coin because it toned in an album 50 years after anyone who could have used it had died. Sitting in an album isn't natural for a coin and didnt happen during its minting days so whats the difference?

What about ancient coins that are cleaned off when found? Their natural state is staying buried and the only reason to clean it is to increase the eye appeal and thus its value. It clearly had to happen in the present and the same argument against uncovering a cleaned coins original surface would say that ancient should be left in its current state.




Even if you could I would ask why would that matter? Theres still barbers found in bank rolls every now and then, are they discounted because they were still changing after everyone from their time had died?

The important part isn't when something happened its what happened to it.

I dont sell what few low balls I have (mostly commems) but whats there to tell. "Warning this coin was in someones pocket", youd have to put that on every single non ms coin. A coin being in someones pocket is what got it to its current condition in the first place. Theres nothing unnatural about it, its not like youre putting it on a sanding belt.

Are you going to tell someone if you store coins on a wooden desk that could change the color or call toning artificial because it came from an album and isn't "natural"? Most people really wouldnt care anyway, they understand coins wore down being used/carried or they toned in an album/desk drawer for years/decades.

The end result is what most people are concerned with and whether or not its natural or tools and chemicals were used. Otherwise uncircualted coins are all you can buy with reasonable confidence that nothing ever happened to them.

Would it be ok if I cut a pocket out my jeans, put some change in it along with the cleaned coin and then slapped it in the tumbler ? Same thing, just quicker.

You know, I do have a rock tumbler. I should try that and see what happens.

basebal21 - the original question was "Is it ok?" and was phrased in the context of a coin already flagged as damaged/cleaned. So we're talking about deliberately doing something physically to a coin presumably for the purpose of deceiving a potential buyer into valuing the coin differently. So my simple answer is "no, it's not ok", and I'll leave it at that.

I fully agree with DB, D7, 52, kbb and others against it. And well said above kbbpll

I don't think that every coin that's seen circulation should receive a details grade, that's absurd. But regular circulated coins were not purposely altered to hide a cleaning, become a lowball or otherwise increase the value. That's what it boils down to for me...

If it was purposely done to achieve a specific result it's altered.

To me a pocket piece isn't a circulating coin... Sure, it may be in your pocket with your other "spending" change... But it's not for spending and doesn't live the same life a circulating coin does.

I disagree that it's the same thing as normal change wearing down.. Most people don't keep the same coins in their pocket for a year straight.. Or multiple years. They get spent, thrown in cup holders, change hands, dropped, change hands again, get spent, given as change, dropped again etc. So a pocket piece may ware in the same manner as regular change but at a much, much faster rate. Bottom line for me is if it was done on purpose to change the coin, especially to achieve a profit, essentially creating a lowball or details free coin , it's wrong. It was purposely created to maximize profit. And it should be disclosed.

I think that carrying pocket pieces are just fine, for your own enjoyment, but not in hopes to sell for a profit. But trying create a lowball/cover a cleaning and then sell at coin as an honest lowball/details free coin it seems wrong IMHO.

You might say that whoever gets your coin after you (inherits, finds, etc) might not be able to tell, and it may be considered market acceptable by them. But KNOWING you altered the coin, no matter if it was done in a way that could occur naturally in a pocket (only over a longer time) bottom line is you altered the coin to achieve a desired result. And if being sold, especially for a decent sum of money it should be noted that the coin was "made" to be this way... It didn't just circulate.. It wasn't just in your pocket... It was purposely carried amongst other coins to change it's appearance/condition. It was purposely done to either hide a cleaning/lower the grade to make a lowball.

So if I can create an ultimate lowball/details free coin and sell it for good money then it's also totally fine if I put a coin in an envelope with some sulfur on my window for a year, or stick it in a potato for a while I should be able to sell it as a non altered "monster" toner? Or throw it in a tumbler to create a low ball/Uncleaned coin?

Or as a drastic example can I crack a super rare AU details coin, throw it in my pocket for as long as it takes and sell it as details free EF? Those crack out artists crack them from details slabs and sell them as details free... Which is wrong.. But if they all used them for a pocket piece to hide the cleaning first you'd all be ok with that? Let them sell away on ebay? I think not.

My question would be where do we draw the line between acceptable and unacceptable? And yes, I understand its a fine line, but if this is considered ok then it should also be quite alright to clean, dip, tone, lacquer, or whatever to a coin.. One that was previously slabbed or raw...

You arent deceiving anyone, the coin is exactly the way it appears. You arent putting fake color on it or smoothing the surface or cleaning it to make it look better it is exactly how it appears. Theres no deception if it wears down to a vf its a vf.




There really is no proper life of a circulating coin. Some sit in jars, others go in vending machines, others sit in a bank roll for decades, other gets dropped/spit shined/thrown in water fountain ect. Being in a pocket is part of that life style for lack of a better word.




Absolutely if it was cleaned and the cleaned layer is stripped off naturally from wear its no longer cleaned. Its takes years to do it though so its really not worth it for that. I'm sure theres probably a misconception that everyone thinks its easy. You can spend over a decade trying to make a lowball.

Sanders/rock tumblers/chemical toning is not the same as letting something wear on its own. Putting a coin in your pocket to wear it is no different than putting a coin in an album hoping it tones. If a pocket isn't acceptable than toned coins arent acceptable either because silver doesn't naturally chance colors without reacting with something else. Circulation coins dont tone colorfully

Me? Yes. If I were the one who'd deliberately worn the bad surface off of the coin, I would absolutely disclose that I'd done so, because I know there are those like you out there who draw such distinctions. I'd further expect to get less for the coin than if I'd failed to make that disclosure.

Because I would get more if I failed to disclose the pocketing. After all, the coin would have original surfaces. As a buyer, I would care not one whit if it was a pocketed piece, because I know there's no difference.

Except for that one (apparently) deadly word: deliberacy.

A rock tumbler almost certainly couldn't duplicate the subtle collisions which happen in a pocket or a pouch. Tumblers cause relatively violent impacts over a short period of time; I'm thinking that would be easily detectable unless you wear the coin into the AG-G class.

Here's some more food for thought, which I've withheld until the thread developed a little. When I say




...I mean ending up with something I'd consider a "market acceptable" coin, based on my own ability to detect deliberate alterations. Chances are I'm better at that than most, if only because I've always been interested in looking at coins on a microscopic level. Even cleaned ones. I have optics of sufficient resolution to clearly see the smallest niches in devices, and a fair amount of experience observing the effects of mechanical and chemical cleaning at serious magnification.

There's no doubt in my mind that I could detect a "deliberate" course of wear on a significant percentage of coins which even passed the TPG test. The TPG's only take a few seconds, and bring no significant magnification to bear. They'll never notice that pocket wear doesn't reach the small areas between digits, or the narrow fields between (for instance) tail feathers and leaves. But I'd see that, and know what I was looking at.

Pocketing a coin to wear away a Details-worthy scratch is one thing - once the scratch was gone, nobody would ever know. Pocketing a coin to hide a previous cleaning is a different proposition altogether, and until you get it perfect the coin is still deliberately altered with the accompanying stigma.

I've stated this to (hopefully) discourage those who might be considering a jump into this practice without thinking about the broader implications. It's not as easy as it looks, and not as easy as the majority of numismatists (and TPG's) make it to be because they do not perform complete diligence in their inspections.

But if I can't see the alteration, I'm giving you full market value, and I won't care how you got it there.