Is This Fake? 1909 S Indian Cent

It looks... fake to me. The wreath on the reverse appears rotated, for some reason. I don't believe I need larger pics to tell that, I have my '09-S in-hand and am comparing the two.

edit: actually, just kidding. Upon closer inspection, I really can't tell either way.

He was talking about his ebay blocked bidder list since you said you were considering not paying for an auction you won. Completely understandable. He wasn't talking about blocking you from the forum.

Without having the coin in-hand, you will not be able to determine its authenticity accurately. We can provide opinions, but that is all they are. The seller's pics are much to small to be able to use them to determine anything.

The reason you have met with such resistance is that many of our members are ebay sellers and buyers. The ethic of refusing to pay for an ebay item has been discussed many times. We all feel that it is important to fulfill a contract that is agreed to. Your winning bid is your signature on that contract.

The other reason that you have met with such opposition is that SuperDave is very honest and ethical. He proved these qualities prior to becoming a Moderator. In fact, it was because of these qualities that we asked him to accept a Moderator position here. As stated earlier, CC is more than just an on-line forum - we are a family. As such, although there are disagreements and mistakes made (we're all human), we are all here united by the same quest for knowledge and a desire to see honesty and intregrity in the numismatic community. When one of our members is attacked, especially when we feel it is undeserved, we will defend that member to the best of our ability.

I hope that you will see where we're coming from and continue to participate here and be a more active member of our family.

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Quite frankly, I made a mistake, didnt look at the coin closely enough before bidding.I don't want to compound that mistake by sending money to Japan and then never see it again and get a faked mint mark coin that is worthless and then maybe get my money back in a month or two from pay-pal. The way I see it if someone sells a coin on e-bay , part of that contract is that the coin will be authentic. A counterfit coin makes that contract null and void. Both parties entering that contract are under the stipulation that the coin is authentic. In fact when you list a coin on e-bay it even says "are you sure this coin is authentic" etc...Once a coin is established to be a fake the contract is null and void. So what needs to be established is if the coin is real or not. There is no reason for others to insult my knowledge of coins or my financial situation (neither of which are a problem). The free speach issue is about having me blocked which is what some-one threatened.

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The fact that you and I are disagreeing about this is, if anything, going to make me more sensitive of your rights on this forum than I might be otherwise. I'm well aware that my status and reputation around here will bring people out of the woodwork to defend me, sometimes overenthusiastically. So, for the record, the dogpile stops here. The point has been made.

And, as Bobby said, your membership and right to post here was never in question in my mind. If you received that impression, I apologize for not making myself clear enough. Agreeing with me is not a prerequisite for Coin Community participation. I was addressing only my concerns as an ebay seller. I fact, I wouldn't even participate in any conversation regarding your status here at CCF, since I've demonstrated bias.

Your points about the validity of an ebay contract for a counterfeit or altered coin are valid. However, the only way to invalidate the contract is to prove the coin a fake; one cannot just arbitrarily declare the coin improper and walk away from a contractual obligation.

So would I feel the same way you do about the coin? Yes. Its' appearance raises uneasy questions in my mind. What to do about having bid on it, though, is where our opinions diverge.

Here is morgan freds statement "This forum is based on honesty and education, neither of which you have demonstrated. Your attack on one of the most trustworthy persons on the forum will not be tolerated on this forum. Think carefully on your next response. You are on the edge of being blocked." If he meant being blocked on his e-bay buyer list thats fine, but given that statement and the fact that he is a "moderator" leads me to believe that that is not what he meant.

To answer your question, I think that the Cent is a fake. The S is way off position and not the correct shape.

As a side note, I have to agree with the general consensus here about why you even bid on something that you had questions about. Obviously you had concerns about the authenticity of the coin when you bid, so why even take a shot at it in the first place. Take your lumps and follow through with the auction is my opinion, if it takes you forever to get your money back then shame on you for bidding to begin with.

Before you jump on me about being one of the "club" sorry, I am new here so it certainly does not apply.

Just stating my opinion.

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If they don't feel that it is authentic, then I would contact the seller for a return/refund, etc.

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Part of the problem, and it's a big problem, is that an authoritative opinion can't be had in time to exercise any return option. It then becomes a dispute, and ebay's system doesn't help much. Even though, as he said, roach can probably ram through a Paypal dispute and get his money back, it's a frustrating experience for everyone involved. Worse yet, Paypal is capricious, and might just decide to stick roach with the coin even if it's a fake.

I think ebay has really dropped the ball regarding situations like these. Yes, they make you affirm that your coin is genuine when you list it, but there's really no teeth with which to enforce it.

You hit it right on the head Dave. I am a seller and a buyer. I think the buyer on ebay deserves more protection than the seller. As an honest seller I have no qualms about letting e-bay scrutinize everything I do as a seller. If I ever make a mistake on an auction and misrepresent something I would happily return it without a problem. Good sellers earn their good feedback and subsequently more bidders. They have a vested interest in protecting that. Bad sellers (not that this person is a bad seller, he may have no clue about coins) have no vested interest at all. They can rip someone off and don't really care. But then e-bay and pay-pal aren't exactly on the buyers side when a bad transaction happens. So I guess what I am saying is as a seller I welcome scrutiny and if some-one thought something I was selling was fake I would certainly not make them buy it, and I would find out if it was real or not. If I knowingly list a fake expensive coin (again I'm not saying this is the case here) and someone buys it for big bucks, that is just not right in any way shape of form, and any-one wanting to get out of that transaction has my blessing. Sellers accept the inherent risks, hassles etc when doing business on e-bay. Buyers should not have the same amount of "responsibility" if you will. they are not seeking a profit , they are seeking a product. Just my 2 cents. Now can we all just get along? To lighten the mood everyone look at this grading company for a good laugh!

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