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What Do The Numbers Mean

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SteveCaruso's Avatar
United States
1796 Posts
 Posted 06/13/2012  9:18 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SteveCaruso to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Here is my own handy-dandy guide for understanding all of the different grading scale gobbildygook, distilled down from the most complex (on the left) to the most simple:

What-Do-The-Numbers-Mean

Although it says "Pennies" (as it was in the context of my penny albums) it tends to "work" like this with everything else too. :-)
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Namachieli's Avatar
United States
2120 Posts
 Posted 06/14/2012  2:02 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Namachieli to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Making a freind of someone you may never see again to most dealers is useless.


I'm sorry you feel that way.
Bedrock of the Community
Conder101's Avatar
United States
17884 Posts
 Posted 06/16/2012  10:28 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Conder101 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I don't understand what the numbers mean? as an example (VF20) what is a 20 stand for

They actually don't mean anything. They are merely an additional name for the grade. They could have used Pr-A,Fr-B,AG-C,G-D,VG-E or 1,2,3,4,5 ore even John, Joe, Mark, and George. The reason they use those numbers is because back in 1949 Dr Sheldon prices of 1794 large cents and to roughly the same extend all early date cents were priced at a consistant group of ratios. A Good coin sold for 4 times what a Poor coin sold for. A VG coin sold for twice what a Good sold for or eight times what a poor one did and so on. If you had a 1794 cent variety that sold for $1 in Poor, it sold for $4 in Good, $8 in VG, $12 in Fine, $20 in VF, $40 in XF, $60 in Unc and $65 for a high end Unc. Dr Sheldon thought he had discovered a natural law covering values of early date cents and if you knew the price in any grade by using the ratios you knew its value in all the other grades as well.

What he had actually discovered was a group of ratios that happened to be true AT THAT TIME. But as more collectors entered the hobby they naturally chased the better condition coins. So demand rose faster at the high end than at the low end and the ratios changed. By 1958 Sheldon was adding on layers of "special rules" and adjusting prices on the low end coins to try and force early date large cent prices back into those original ratios from 1949. Believe it or not the people in EAC continued trying to tweak rules and values up until 1972 to try and force them to obey the old ratios before the who idea of the ratio numbers was officially junked.

Then in 1977 the ANA decided to produce a book with the official written standards for the different grades. (Grade names which by the way had been in use since the 19th century) and they stuck those old ratio numbers back on to the grades. Its a mistake. Numbers imply precision and that something can be measured and/or calculated. But there is no measuring, calculating or precision in the subjective world of grading.
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Gyrene7483's Avatar
United States
1704 Posts
 Posted 06/16/2012  11:16 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Gyrene7483 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
But why should they tell anyone?


As the other member stated, honesty. But they also have their reputation to consider.

If the coin dealer is a member of the ANA, PCDA (Professional Coin Dealers Association), or other coin dealer group they must abide by their organizations code of ethics which requires them to disclose a coin has been cleaned or otherwise tampered with and to hide such and they have a complaint filed against them to whatever organizations they belong to the penalties if found guilty and are deemed serious enough they can be expelled and their expulsion is published publicly for all to see and the reason why.

Ed
ANA LM-3175
Valued Member
donkrx's Avatar
United States
227 Posts
 Posted 06/16/2012  11:48 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add donkrx to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
just_carl: He has this coin and it is cleaned. It has a price on it of $100. Now if he also added it's been cleaned, he would know he now has to lower the price. Why would he do that? Someone that doesn't know, might just buy it for that $100. And as to grading, if they can get away with a AU-50 instead of a EF-40, just more money for them. Most dealers at coin shows I've met do know grading and what has been cleaned. But why should they tell anyone?


Yeah they're just trying to catch whatever fish are in the sea. They're hoping you can't see the problems, or grade it correctly, or tell that its really not RD or PL etc etc.... when in all probability THEY bought the coin for a fair price in order to try to pass it off as better. I mean they might as well try, even if its in a slab by PCGS or NGC.



Valued Member
donkrx's Avatar
United States
227 Posts
 Posted 06/17/2012  12:15 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add donkrx to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
But why should they tell anyone?


Quote:
As the other member stated, honesty.


Yeah, a fair reason, but I still feel it would be naive to rely on and expect honesty (even with the various codes of ethics). First of all, it's really hard to prove someone was intentionally not disclosing a problem with a coin (how often do these get enforced?), and secondly, money is involved. Never underestimate how much money can change someone's behavior.

You have to be relentless in watching out for yourself. I think most active people on here probably do because they are serious about learning, but its worth repeating to any lurkers that are tempted to trust their dealers.

Reminds me of this PCGS video (in this case, this guy got punished because it involved PCGS):

bun2ZgdNbWs
Bedrock of the Community
Conder101's Avatar
United States
17884 Posts
 Posted 06/19/2012  3:34 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Conder101 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Oh and the grade number joke Steve posted is good it isn't fair to Sheldon. He never suggested using all those grades. Sheldon used 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,10, 12,15, 20,25,30,35,40, 45, 50, 55, 60, 65, and 70. More at the lower end and less at the upper end, and fewer than the "What most people use" catagory.
Valued Member
MadMortician's Avatar
United States
397 Posts
 Posted 06/19/2012  5:02 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add MadMortician to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@SteveCaruso: Thanks for the laugh on the chart. I'm going to have to print this up for my girlfriend. While she is not a full blown collector (the only coin in her 'collection' is a US quarter someone used spray glitter on), she does ask the bank tellers she see for work and personal business if they have any interesting coins. When she finds something, she sends me an excited text describing it using the "All you need when roll searching" scale.

I was wondering though: So I understand the Scale for the most part... except the + symbols next to some grades. I've noticed them in a few places. So if I am grasping the scale... if I saw a MS 65+ coin that means that it is missing some requirement to be a MS 66 coin (or what ever the next step up is), but it is a exceptional example of a MS 65 coin? Meaning it meets every requirement for a MS 65 coin, but is in better condition than other known examples of that particular coin of that grade?

@Donkrx: Thanks for sharing the video.
Edited by MadMortician
06/19/2012 5:02 pm
Bedrock of the Community
Conder101's Avatar
United States
17884 Posts
 Posted 06/20/2012  10:25 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Conder101 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
So I understand the Scale for the most part... except the + symbols next to some grades.

Something PCGS started a couple years ago. Originally the gradng services only used 60.65, and 70. Then to get you to send your coins in and pay them again they pushed for the addition of 63 and 67. Then they added 64. Then they went all out and when to all the numbers from 60 to 70. After several rounds of coin submitting until most everything is maxed out, they had to come up with a new way to get you to pay to have your coins graded yet again, so they added on the + grade for high end for the grade coins. When everything gets maxed out again, they will probably either go to decimal point grading or the will finally introduce a new 1-100 grading scale.
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