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1807 Silver Dollar Need Help

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Voshus007's Avatar
United States
442 Posts
 Posted 01/13/2013  3:31 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Voshus007 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Ok so I took the coin to the fun show and I had multiple dealers and even the CCF'ers at the fun show and all of them said that it is genuine and that it has never been holed. That made me happy :) ok so because its genuine and never holed what would the value be?
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jfransch's Avatar
United States
1801 Posts
 Posted 01/13/2013  5:00 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jfransch to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I would place the value of your coin at between $35 and $50, it is a common date * reales in heavily circulated condition. Great coin and a great entry coin into the world of "8 Reales" collecting.
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Voshus007's Avatar
United States
442 Posts
 Posted 01/13/2013  8:06 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Voshus007 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Ok cool I showed it to one dealer and he offered me $20 and said that collectors don't like the chop marks that only chop mark collectors do. Is that true?
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swamperbob's Avatar
United States
5362 Posts
 Posted 01/13/2013  8:28 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
In my experience the answer varies with the person you are asking.
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wonghinghi's Avatar
Hong Kong
1270 Posts
 Posted 01/15/2013  10:09 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add wonghinghi to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
1807 was a popular date for US forgers


Swamperbob

I have a portrait 1807 also and want you to see it is a contemporary counterfeit or a real one. The coin weights 26.48 grams, 39.3 mm in diameter. The reserve side is moderately corroded and part of edge is seriously torn. Luckily, there are still two opposite overlap seen.
The coin was bought from a German seller on ebay a few months ago.
1807-Silver-Dollar-Need-Help
1807-Silver-Dollar-Need-Help


1807-Silver-Dollar-Need-Help

1807-Silver-Dollar-Need-Help
Two oppo. edge overlaps below:

1807-Silver-Dollar-Need-Help

1807-Silver-Dollar-Need-Help

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swamperbob's Avatar
United States
5362 Posts
 Posted 01/15/2013  12:57 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The coin is NOT a Class 1 contemporary circulating counterfeit - that is absolutely certain.

The coin is also very unlikely to be a Class 3 Forgery based on the appearance of the surfaces and the edge.

That leaves two possibilities Genuine or Class 2 which is a Contemporary Silver restrike (a type of counterfeit made between 1830 and 1930). This class is discussed in detail in our book. There are visual clues that can increase suspicion of a counterfeit. To help decide which coins are probable Class 2 varieties we have created a listing of 20 clues. The more clues the more likely a coin is counterfeit. But to be 100% sure only metal testing (like XRF) can decide.

This coin has very few indicators pointing to Class 2 so it is likely real, but without testing the trace contaminants in the alloy you can not be absolutely POSITIVE.

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wonghinghi's Avatar
Hong Kong
1270 Posts
 Posted 01/16/2013  09:32 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add wonghinghi to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you swamperbob, I am looking forward to reading your book.

Is it true the number of class 1 and class 3 contemporary counterfeits survive today are much much less than that of the class two silver restrikes? I suppose the Chinese at that olden days would never be cheated by those debased counterfeits so those debased specimens should be circulated in some other places.

Old Chinese would accept those so-called class 2 silver restrike because they knew they were made of real silver. I supposed they knew there were many restrike but they didn't mind that once they were capable of differentiating the counterfeits from the real. So it is reasonable to believe there were a large number of portrait 8R restrikes from 180 to 1930 as you said. But it is regretted this fact had never been recorded in our Chinese numismatic or historical documents (at lease I never seen). I really hope to know more about this topic and reflect this historical fact to our people.

Another question for you swamperbob, in ebay now, which one the origianl portrait 8 reales or the class 2 silver restrikes are more in number (more easy to find) ? Can you make a guess?
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swamperbob's Avatar
United States
5362 Posts
 Posted 01/17/2013  12:55 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The Class 1 counterfeits are rather rare on ebay or anywhere else - they run less than 1 % of posts on ebay long term.

The Class 3 forgeries (new ones) are not that prevalent - I track 2 or 3 a day on ebay. But they are also harder to spot in photos so I am likely missing a few.

The Class 2 coins are the most common type of the 3. But they are VERY hard to spot in photos, plus most sellers do not put photos of the edges. There are 28 portrait 8Rs posted on ebay a day (average for the past 200 days). I spot Class 2 at about 4-5 a day in the same time frame but I think twice as many are actually there.

You understand the reason behind the Class 2 coins very well. They were successful coins because the target audience did not care that they were not genuine as long as they were real silver. That simple point is missed by most professional dealers. They have no idea that a large percentage of what they sell as genuine is really NOT. That is one reason I expect push back on the book. I make no claims in the book as to the percentage of Class 2 versus genuine coins.

It is also why I say that genuine 8Rs and Class 2 counterfeits are priced on a par. Typically at the shop I buy all the Class 2 coins and I pay $ 25-30 for class 2 coins. I get 2-3 a month sometimes more. The number of genuine coins that come in in the same interval is always LOWER - under 1 a month. So based on what we see walking into the store in NC at least 3/4ths of all the 8Rs are Class 2.

I think only time will tell how many Class 2 coins have survived versus genuine examples.


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wonghinghi's Avatar
Hong Kong
1270 Posts
 Posted 01/17/2013  06:19 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add wonghinghi to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
To help decide which coins are probable Class 2 varieties we have created a listing of 20 clues.


I must buy one copy of the book written by swamperbob and his partners. I hope it will come soon. As a coin collector for South American Portrait 8R, it must be helpful to have an expertise to differentiate a genuine 8R from the class 2 silver restrike.
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