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Modern Proof Maria Theresa Thaler?

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Pillar of the Community
wonghinghi's Avatar
Hong Kong
1270 Posts
 Posted 11/09/2013  10:49 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add wonghinghi to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I acquire two more London type (H63) in this week and show here for all to see.

The mintage of London type (H63) was large so it is esay to get from ebay especially from UK sellers. The mintage information of London type was shown by M.R. Broome below:
Modern-Proof-Maria-Theresa-Thaler?

London type MTT restrikes can be easily identified by 1)its characteristic saltire (two rather straight crossed rods), 2)fish-tailing of "1" of 1780, 3) there are 13 dots in the eagle's beak (left) and 4) the 1-2-1 tail feathers formation.

The following are my recetly obtained London type MTT restrikes.

28.12 grams, 40.4-40.6 mm, from UK seller.
Modern-Proof-Maria-Theresa-Thaler?
Modern-Proof-Maria-Theresa-Thaler?
Modern-Proof-Maria-Theresa-Thaler?

28.00 grams, 40.6-40.7 mm, from US seller
Modern-Proof-Maria-Theresa-Thaler?
Modern-Proof-Maria-Theresa-Thaler?
Modern-Proof-Maria-Theresa-Thaler?

The total 7 London MTT restrikes shown here and last week, the weights and diameters of each do not comply with the data (diameter 39.5mm and 28.50 g) from Hafner's Lexicon, so any collectors of these MTT restrikes have to bear in mind, the weight and diameter of London type are not the foolproof information for that variety.
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austrokiwi's Avatar
2087 Posts
 Posted 11/09/2013  4:04 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add austrokiwi to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I have spoken with Grahem Dyer( some time ago) of The Royal Mint. Graham was the same person who discussed the fish tailing with Broome....and I have a copy of grahams answer to Broome. The fish tailing ( based on Xray florescence) seems to occur on Indian mint coins( identified by a very slight gold content, as well as zinc lead and tin) Graham agreed with me the fish tailing might actually be an indicator for the Indian mints. I wouldn't recommend relying on Hafner for identifying the Indian mint coins( ie the photographs in his book). For the Indian mint coins particularly bombay Hafner based his work on that of Stokes.....and Stokes based his description( at least of Bombay strikes) on an example ,since lost, held by The Royal Mint. However that example was actually a trial strike from polished dies ....and I have never seen one that matches Stokes description. The only guaranteed way to identify Indian mint coins is XRay florescence At the time the Indian mints were producing MTTs their silver refining process were not very efficient so trace amounts of gold are found in the Indian mint coins. YOu also find trace amounts of gold in very early re-strikes for the same reason. IMHO the most important coin for someone to find would be the Bombay mint gold Abschlag MTT presented to King Farouk.....that coin where ever it is will give clear identifiers for the Bombay mint.

Of your photos I would say the first is definitely London and the second ( with the fishtailing) is possibly Indian. All coins have some variation in weight ad size.....With modern struck coins the variation is very slight....with the MTT, as a more primitive striking process was used, the variation can be slightly larger.
Edited by austrokiwi
11/09/2013 4:08 pm
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nalaberong's Avatar
Canada
2805 Posts
 Posted 11/09/2013  8:45 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add nalaberong to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I'm wondering about this MTT in a presentation case. It was given to me by my Austrian grandfather... I'm pretty sure it was made in Vienna, but I'd like to know more about the packaging it comes in.
Modern-Proof-Maria-Theresa-Thaler?
The case.
Modern-Proof-Maria-Theresa-Thaler?
The coin.
Modern-Proof-Maria-Theresa-Thaler?
The certificate.
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wonghinghi's Avatar
Hong Kong
1270 Posts
 Posted 11/09/2013  9:09 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add wonghinghi to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you your opinion, austrokiwi. It is quite logical to believe there is a small remnant of gold in Indian type because of the imperfect metal refining process in Bombay. But XRF would create other problems! I mean the problem of accuracy - no one knows how high or how low the gold content in a coin is a Bombay type. No one could also guarantee there is absolute no gold in a London strike.

I like to clasify London type form other British mints by their appearances as I really see three different saltires on the British MTT restrikes. The length of the word "CLMENTIA" could be a clue for identification. From the table "Output from British-controlled Mints", the mintage in London was much greater than Bombay and of course Culcutta. By probability, we could buy a London strike is much easier than that of a Bombay type, isn't it? I would show the Bombay or Culcutta strikes for you (at least I believe they are!) later.
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wonghinghi's Avatar
Hong Kong
1270 Posts
 Posted 11/09/2013  11:32 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add wonghinghi to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Nalaberong, your MTT restrike is probably H 61a, a modern struck MTT produced from 1960s-80s. This is surely not a circulating specimen as the silver content is 83.5% rather than 83.3%.
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wonghinghi's Avatar
Hong Kong
1270 Posts
 Posted 11/09/2013  11:49 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add wonghinghi to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Just have a break to discuss British-related MTT restrike.

I would like to show a proof restrike that I think it is not a modern one (1960-80s). I don't think there were too many proof specimens minted before WWII as most of the MTT restrikes at that time were for circulation. The other proof MTT restrike I know is the H70 Paris 1949-55/60. Would anyone know (esp. austrokiwi) there is another proof variety for Vienna restrikes? PLease identify. Thank you.

27.89 grams, 40-4-40.6 mm, bought from German seller.
Modern-Proof-Maria-Theresa-Thaler?
Two dots are present on the Austrian shield (too faint to be seen from the photo)
Modern-Proof-Maria-Theresa-Thaler?
Modern-Proof-Maria-Theresa-Thaler?
Modern-Proof-Maria-Theresa-Thaler?
Modern-Proof-Maria-Theresa-Thaler?
Modern-Proof-Maria-Theresa-Thaler?
Modern-Proof-Maria-Theresa-Thaler?
Modern-Proof-Maria-Theresa-Thaler?

? Is it possible be a H57?
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austrokiwi's Avatar
2087 Posts
 Posted 11/10/2013  04:02 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add austrokiwi to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
But XRF would create other problems! I mean the problem of accuracy - no one knows how high or how low the gold content in a coin is a Bombay type.


I have a LOndon Mint assay report in my files somewhere....From memory:0.4%
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wonghinghi's Avatar
Hong Kong
1270 Posts
 Posted 11/12/2013  10:55 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add wonghinghi to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Austrokiwi, could you suggest any readings about MTT restrike online or printed materials. For the best of your knowledge and your collections, which variety of MTT presents a proof strike? Your feedback is highly appreciated.
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austrokiwi's Avatar
2087 Posts
 Posted 11/13/2013  05:54 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add austrokiwi to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
here's a starting list where not stated in English):

• A. Alessandrini "Florence Struck MT Talers in 1814. World coins, August 1969 not very helpful
• Robert H. Behrens "Maria Theresa's Invisible Empire Survives With Coins, Tradition" World Coins Vol 6 August 1969. Pages, 822, 824, 828, 832, 836, & 838.
• M.R. Broome "The 1780 Restrike Talers of Maria Theresia". Doris Stockwell Memorial Papers No 1 (Reprinted from the Numismatic Chronicle Seventh Series, Vol. XII 1972)

Good reference I have a spare hard to find ebay is the best place to look
• M.R. Broome, Florentine Restrike Talers, in American Numismatic Society Museum Notes 29, 1984 Try Abe books for this

• C. v. Ernst "Der Levantinerthaler" Numismatische Zietshrift Wien,band 4, 1872,pages 271 â€" 295. Solid reference but in german you will most likely find it in the internet archive
• C. v. Ernst "Die Munzbuchstaben S.F, F.S , T.S. â€" I.F. auf Thalern der Kaiserin Maria Theresia mit der Jahrezahl 1780" Numismatische Zietshrift Wien, band 28, 1896 pages 305 â€" 308. Solid reference but in german you will most likely find it in the internet archive
• Walter Hafner "The Lexicon on the Maria Theresien Taler 1780" 1984
• Franz Leypold "Der Maria Theresien Taler". 1976 German
• Franz Leypold "Das Verbreitungsgebiet des Maria-Theresien-Talers" Numismatische Zietshrift Wien band 94, 1980, page 66 German
• Gyula Rádóczy (Budapest) "Beiträge zur Mϋnzprägung während der Regierungsziet Maria Theresias (bis 1768)" Numismatische Zietshrift Wien, 94 band 1980, pages 7 - 41
German

• Carl Peez, & Josef Raudnitz " Geschichte des Maria-Theresien-Taler" Publisher: Carl Graeser Wien, 1898 Very hard to find in german try abe books don't go for the example that seems to be in English it only contains part of the book and that part is in German
• Franz Reiβenaur "Münzstätte Günzburg 1764-1805, Background info in german 1981
• Clara Semple "A Silver Legend" Bazan Publishing 2005. Great coffee table book not a numismatic refernce. I barely touch it now
• Adrian E. Tschoegl „Maria Theresia's Thaler: A Case of International Money" Eastern Economic Journal, vol 27, No. 4 Fall 2001, pages 443 - 462. You can find a copy with an internet search....mostly slid but incorrectly claims there are no reports of counterfieting


That will do for starters!!
New Member
Egypt
3 Posts
 Posted 11/14/2013  10:05 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add amih to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Hey guys, I recently found a MTT and was hoping someone could help me figure out what version it is. Here are the pictures I have of it.

Modern-Proof-Maria-Theresa-Thaler?

Modern-Proof-Maria-Theresa-Thaler?

Modern-Proof-Maria-Theresa-Thaler?

Modern-Proof-Maria-Theresa-Thaler?

Modern-Proof-Maria-Theresa-Thaler?
Pillar of the Community
wonghinghi's Avatar
Hong Kong
1270 Posts
 Posted 11/15/2013  10:11 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add wonghinghi to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Amih, welcome to our discussion on MTT restrike.

I would guess your coin is either a H60 or H61a specimen. A modern Vienna restrike at about 1960-1986. Check also with the central Austrian shield whether there are two dots, if it has, it is likely a H60. I base on the following characteristics to make my conclusion.

1) the saltire
2) the number of dots (12) in the left beak
3) the presence of a curved claw (only found in modern MTT restrike)
4) the single pin feather at the base of the tail, most of the older restrike have two pin feathers

All are circled red in your photo.


Modern-Proof-Maria-Theresa-Thaler?
Pillar of the Community
Archraz's Avatar
United States
3499 Posts
 Posted 11/15/2013  9:21 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Archraz to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Hi MTT guys, So I've had these two sitting around for a bit, but I've never been quite able to categorize them properly. Both have the two dots in the center of the reverse shield, but I'm not convinced that they are H62. Coin 1 is 39.5mm in diameter, and coin 2 is 40mm in diameter. Is it possible that these are H57 or H60? Thanks!

(sorry if the edge pics are a bit blurry- it's hard to get a good pic of them with the auto focus my camera)



Modern-Proof-Maria-Theresa-Thaler?

Modern-Proof-Maria-Theresa-Thaler?

Modern-Proof-Maria-Theresa-Thaler?

Modern-Proof-Maria-Theresa-Thaler?

Modern-Proof-Maria-Theresa-Thaler?

Modern-Proof-Maria-Theresa-Thaler?
Pillar of the Community
wonghinghi's Avatar
Hong Kong
1270 Posts
 Posted 11/15/2013  10:38 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add wonghinghi to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Archraz, is the diameter of 39.5mm correct for the first coin? Do you measure it by a reliable calliper? Your first coin is obviously a more modern one, similar to amih's recently posted coin. I would guess your first coin is H60. My experience also tells those more modern (post WWII or around 1980s) have a larger diameter, such as up to 41mm.

It needs some time to access your second coin. Obviously an older specimen, can be a pre-WWII Vienna specimen so H57 is possible.
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Archraz's Avatar
United States
3499 Posts
 Posted 11/15/2013  10:45 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Archraz to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
wonghinghi- Thanks! Yeah, I just re-measured it, and it seems like it might actually be 40mm. I too suspected that it was H60. SO I'm glad to get the confirmation.

I look forward to hearing your thoughts on my second coin. And I can provide more pics if need be.
New Member
Egypt
3 Posts
 Posted 11/16/2013  05:35 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add amih to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks for the info, wonghinghi, it was really helpful!
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